Kerry : Tora Bora reference

[Donovan]

Well, I voted in favor of Kerry. Here is why I think he is correct.

Your arguments are weak and you base them on distortions of the facts at the time.

First, the reason we don't know for fact that Bin Laudin was in the area at the time was because Bush did not allow US Troops to pursue the enemy. He wanted to wait, which allowed the Taliban to escape.

Second, it didn't matter if Bin Laudin was there or not. Is was confirmed that nearly 1000 enemy troops that helped and planned in the destruction of  the World Trade Center and were harboring those that helped kill 3,000+ US citizens were in the area. If that isn't enough reason enough to go in for a kill, what is?

Third, the reports of Bin Laudin being in the Tora Bora region were creditable enough to be considered the MOST likely location of Bin Laudin.

Fourth, we should have attacked all areas believed to be harboring Bin Laudin with US Troops to make sure he was dead.

Finally, if the CURRENT tactics are so GOOD, why are most of our troops entangled in another irrelevant war, and how come Bin Laudin is sitting in Pakistan laughing at us, most likely plotting against the US again more than 3 years later?

Face it, Bush messed up. He gave Bin Laudin a 6-week head start, gave all of the Bin Laudins in the US a first class flight back home to Saudi Arabia losing invaluable intelligence, and this has made the US incapable of capturing Bin Laudin.

Any competent President would have captured and/or killed Bin Laudin within a year's time or put forth the entire military to do so. Now we may never get Bin Laudin.

The slap in the face is that Bush didn't allow our troops to do their job, and the Bush is not intelligent enough to capture Bin Laudin.

Bush should be fired for a job poorly done.

[Donovan]

Face it, Bush messed up. He gave Bin Laudin a 6-week head start, gave all of the Bin Laudins in the US a first class flight back home to Saudi Arabia losing invaluable intelligence, and this has made the US incapable of capturing Bin Laudin.

The claim that Osama bin Ladin's family had knowledge of his whereabouts is not only completely false, but smacks of racism.  No member of the previous administration or this administration and no former or current member of US intelligence or law enforcement has claimed that bin Ladin family members had "invaluable intelligence", so where are you getting this information?  Michael Moore?  Members of his family have lived in the U.S. for years and were cooperative after the repeated al Qaida attacks of the 90s.  Unfortunately, their cooperation did not make up for the fact that they knew nothing.

Any competent President would have captured and/or killed Bin Laudin within a year's time or put forth the entire military to do so. Now we may never get Bin Laudin.

Speaking of repeated al Qaida attacks in the 90s, how "competent" was Clinton when he passed up, on four separate occasions, chances to capture or kill bin Ladin?  Not only did Clinton not "put forth the entire military" he did not put a single person on the ground.  All he did was launch a completely ineffective missile strike after the embassy bombings.  After the bombing of the Cole he chose to do absolutely nothing.

[Donovan]

Ok, so it not justified holding the family members of a person that just killed 3000 + Americans to ask them some questions? But hey, it is perfectly logical to detain 1,000s of Middle Easterners in the United States that have no known connection with Bin Laudin?

HELLO! Do you know any Middle Easterners? If you did, you would know that many were taken in the middle of the night away from their families, many still detained, with NO evidence against them other than being a Middle Easterner.  Many not even given trials, and if gone to trial, found innocent but still kept for other trumped up charges.

There is one guy in my city that they took away, has been found not guilty and they still have him locked up for over a year not able to see his family. A conservative federal judge declared innocent.

There are 1,000s of these stories all over the US.

You would think that Bush would have the Common sense to at least ask the Bin Laudins some questions about their loved one. To say that they know NOTHING that could be of value to capture is farfetched, but rather pointless now since Bush let them go.

In addition, since when has Bush cared about the rights of anybody? Shall we visit the prisons in Iraq?
Bush is failure. He has failed on everything, from the war in Iraq, the economy, immigration, education, loose nukes, capturing Bin Laudin, peace talks with North Korea and Iran, you name it. He is a complete failure and embarrassment to the country!

[Donovan]

Tredrick,

I am not going to provide you with 1000 links. But I am happen to list a few for you and you can research it yourself further. I am surprised though that you have not heard about this going on. It is one of the major reasons why the majority of the socially conservative Muslim population has switched from supporting Republicans to supporting Democrats.

http://www.argonaut.uidaho.edu/archives/022503/arrest.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071555/
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0114-03.htm
http://www.pww.org/article/view/2594/1/128/
http://www.detnews.com/2003/specialreport/0311/04/a06-314448.htm
http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/457/457_07_Detentions.shtml
http://www.profilesininjustice.com/newsstory.asp?id=76
http://www.uusc.org/news/terdetain013102.html
http://middleeastinfo.org/article4598.html
http://www.islamonline.net/english/news/2002-03/10/article56.shtml

[Donovan]

JJ,

Don't you find it odd that they only enforce the 100+ restrictions of Visa's on Arab vistors, and only after 2001? Funny, how that is.

If you bothered to even read Visa restrictions you find out that about 99% of them violate at least one of them. So enforcing the law was never the issue. We have about 2-3 million illegal immigrants roaming the streets of Southwestern States.

It is obvious if you know any of these Arabs in the US that it is all BS. Many of Visa violations are also later to be found not in violation. I know that was the case in many of them.

The reason they charge with violation of the Visa is because you cannot argue against them in court, INS has total control.

[Donovan]

1. Just because you don't arrest every VISA violator doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't arrest some of them.

2. A finding that no violation of immigration laws has taken place only entitles the defendant to relase, not the right to never be detained.

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Did I state that you shouldn't arrest some of them if they broke the law? No, I did not. Only enforcing laws against one group of people and not another on the basis or ethnic background is still discrimination. Further, how are you enforcing the law if all of the people you arrest are found not guilty of breaking any laws?

I guess all those Arab deserve to be seperated from their families for year or more because they decided to be Arab in a bigoted land.

You be seperated from your family for a year in tiny 8X10 cell with no windows, after being as law abiding as you can, Mr. Ford, then come back to me and tell me how it was all justified.

[Donovan]

OK, guys, I am trying to get you down here with me on the planet Earth.

First, they DID NOT violate the Visa in most cases, such as in the first link. I know the lawyers and studied the case. The Government SAID they violated the Visas. A quick reality check will tell you that what the government says is true, and what really is true are not always the same. They LIED about the fact that they violated the Visa, so that they could hold them in the cell until they could come up with some other charge.

Second, if they violated the VISA, FINE, send them back. But don't keep them locked up for 1-2 years bringing up charge after charge after charge against them that keeps getting knocked down by juries and judges because they have no merit, all the while the taxpayer is paying for this.

Third, if you are going to start enforcing every detail and minor nuances regulation of a VISA you need to do it evenly across the board.

Fourth, it is not a CRIME to violate the terms of VISA. It is simply a violation of an agreement between the INS and the person who obtained the VISA. If a student with a Visa changes a class in college from English 543 to 521 because of a changed degree requirement and they forget to contact immigration services, this is not a crime and harms nobody.

Finally, what is a crime is that the Federal Government uses Racial Profiling. What is also a crime is to detain someone for 1-2 years without a trial. What is a crime is to use your authority to arrest and detail a large group of people on the basis of race with full knowledge that they have not committed a crime. What is a crime is to slander a member of the community and call them a terrorist when they have no connection to terrorism.
What is a crime is to have three little boys screaming in the middle of the night waking the whole community because the Government wanted to scare the Arab population by stealing their Daddy in the middle of the night who had done no wrong.

Saying they were in violation of their VISA, which they weren't, even if true, doesn't justify the violation of due process of the law. In other words, just because someone breaks the speed limit by 5 MPH doesn't justify detaining a person for 1-2 years, in a tiny cell with no windows, and keeping them from a lawyer, their family, and practicing their religion.

You have messed up since of Justice Mr. Ford and Tredrick, and need to reconsider what is wrong with the idea of just enforcing the law on a Minority of people while letting all the White people break the law all they want, and to an even greater extent. Until you can figure that one out it is not worth the time debating with either of you. It is clear you stand for bigotry and ignorance and ignore what America is suppose to be about, and why the Constitution is in place.

You don't want to believe, or take the time to realize, that the government harassed a great of Arabs and Arab Americans in the wake of 9/11. You think that the government is 100% honest, and everything they tell you is 100% the unwavering truth. I too wish that was the case. But I don't need to go far to know that is not the reality in which we live.

[Donovan]

I favor full enforcement of immigration laws.  Every time I see a step in that direction, it pleases me.  I have every right to favor the detainment of all suspected Visa violators and every right to favor the detainment of only certain groups of Visa violators, seeing as that partial detainment is a step towards the full goal.  I also have every right to understand that the government must prioritize its suspects, and not spend the bulk of its resources chasiung Mexican day laborers when the threat is from Arab and Muslim foreigners who (like many of the hijackers on 9/11) had violated their Visas.  What would the reaction be from this country if the government had allowed thousands of people who are here illegally in violation of their Visas to continue about their day and as a result even one of them launches a terrorist attack?

Millions of people all over the country are wrongfully arrested.  They are given due process and set free, just as these Visa violators were.

Every sane person supports racial prfiling at this point.  Anyone who doesn't has some kind of suicide complex.

Well, first let me point out the hijackers of 9/11 were not in violation of their Visas.

Second, now that you proudly admit your bigotry I think I have made my case; That you have to be a bigot to support Bush in this policy. You have made my case very clear.

Sanity is not being parinoid about all Arab Americans, that is called Stupidity. Just like the idiots that killed Arabs and Indians on 9/12/01.

I am fine with you thinking that illegal detainment and abuse of power by Government Officials is OK so long as it is done to people based on race only and not your and family.

You have every right to be a bigot and think that Arabs are all a threat to Americans and planning to kill you. I just wanted people on this forum to see that is the way you think that basis for your reasoning. Thanks for making my case.

Now let us not hope that a White Guy kills a bunch of people in terorist attack, oh wait, what about Timothy McVeigh?

[Donovan]

There actually is a difference beween violating a Visa and violating  "some aspect of immigration U.S. laws".

You also would not be able to even obtain that information if Bush had his way because he opposed the 9/11 commission.

Second, comparing all Arabs to the same catagory as "Wacko Skinheads" is another example of your narrow minded bigoted way of thinking.

Third, find me ONE immigrant that has not violated at least ONE of the thousands of immigration laws and Visa regualtions?

Finally, if it truly is that the Visa violators are indeed the terrorists, then they should be arresting them, not people that didn't have Visa violations and just happen to be Arab like they did with the Arabs in my Community.

How would you feel if the government terrorized your family, locked you up and accused you of 12 crimes they KNEW were a lie, and keep you locked up for some silly law for 16 months until you confessed to a major crime you didn't commit? How would you feel if your wife and children were not given food, clothing, shelter, and support while you were detained?

Does at least, in your warped sense of Justice, the 3 year-old boy that is as much a US citizen as you and I deserve the right to food, clothing, and shelter while his dad is locked up for two years on pending charges?

What part of "Equality for All" are you unclear about?

[Donovan]

Sorry you are completely wrong.

In my community, here is what happened.

Sammi Omar was sitting at his apartment at the when the Government one early morning barged into his house, scaring his children and wife. They took him away, 300 miles to Boise. They put him in tiny cell isolated with a tiny window.

The government spent $140,000 on the planning and operation of the arrest. They made up Visa violation charges to hold him. While they held him, they created numerous other charges against him. Including knowing and contacting terrorist Usama Bin Laudin. The President of the University condemned him. The media reported as face that he violated his Visa, and conspired with Bin Laudin.

What was their evidence? Little, they had a phone call and pictures on the internet the government said. The Pictures were on his computer of the Twin Towers that were downloaded when he visited a newspaper site about what happened. The phone call was of his wife saying how she felt it odd that they would have sandals with the American Flag, and that walking on the Flag was disgraceful to the flag.

His family was not given financial support, as you state, it was not given. The boys survived on the goodwill of the surrounding Arab community.

After 2 years, he was able to go to trial. He was found NOT GUILTY, by a jury of his peers in the second most conservative state in the Union, Idaho, and Home of the Aryan Nations.

He was found NOT guilty on all counts of VISA violations and on all terror related charges.

This is not some story I read, this happened in my community. I know that the boys were not given US aid, because I was there, I talked to them, saw them, held them. I know this guy was not guilty. Nevertheless, the Government spent over $250,000 to try to nail a good member of the community, which not only vocally condemned the 9/11 attacks but organized the community and raised thousands to go the victims of 9/11. This was man that did NOTHING wrong, violated NO law, and Federal Government knew that the whole time.

And after all this did they let the poor man go back and be with his family? HELL NO! They revoked his families Visas, send them back across the ocean, and made up more charges of VISA fraud and kept him in jail even longer.

I know this not from reading, I know this because it happened in my community in an area I was elected to represent.  What I later found out was this same thing was happening all over the country, everywhere against Muslims and Arabs. Visa laws are not black and white rules. They are very subjective, and you can twist the wording all you want enough to use that an excuse to detain them, and detain them for a long time.

This man didn't deserve this. Moreover, even if someone did violate some minor VISA regulation, it is not justification for 2 years of harassment, imprisonment, and emotional torture, anymore than person deserves to be bashed in the back of the head for spitting on the sidewalk.

The punishment should fit the crime.

Holding and detaining someone because they are Arab is a crime. Why aren't you asking for justice against this?

Again, what part of "Equality for All" do you not understand?

[Donovan]

No one was detained for being Arab.  

Well, you go right ahead and believe that in your fantasy world Mr. Ford. Discrimination doesn't exist in the United States. People are not detained for being Arab. People are not killed for being Black. And Gays are not denied marriage. What a wonderful world you live in. Must be nice to be a white, heterosexual, rich, male huh?

Take Care.

[Donovan]

When did I disclose my ethnicity, gender, or income in this debate?

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Well you did it with you statements. And sorry to say,  I looked you up and researched you on the internet. Not so hard. You are connected to the internet right now.

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This is so typical of the left to claim racism, classism, or sexism any tinme they lose an argument, building upm their little straw men instead of accepting reality.  You have been caught in close to a dozen falsehoods and outright lies in thei debate by both me and others, and now you can't stand the heat.

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I can take the heat just fine Mr. Ford. I am have no difficulty with it, It is you who have admitted to being frusrated.

The only thing that bothers me is that you are unwilling to accept the fact that the US government has denied due process of law to many Arabs, and been improperly detained by the government. You fail to admit that.

I don't give a crap about Visas, and if the 12 hijackers, or was that 16, or 22, I don't care, violated a Visa regulation.

What I care about is if the government is enforcing the law fairly and not doing racial profiling.

Here you state that anyone that doesn't believe in racism is insane. NO, I am not going to let fly Mr. Ford.

I am not going to let you get away either with statements that it is OK to just go after on group of people based on race.

This is the very definition of bigtry and racism. If you treat one race different than another, that is racism, look it up, it is not just me.

Are you now retracting your previous statement that you think racial profiling is OK by you?

If not, accept the fact that you are racist. Period and Good night.

[Donovan]

Mr. Ford,

You are absoultly correct that I was wrong about the issue of the Terrorists attacking the US on 9/11 had violated their Visas. That was stupid of me not to double check on that one line in my argument. I concede to you that point. I am sure hijacking a plane alone would be a violation of a Visa.

But that is not my argument. There are more facts to the argument that we are discussing.

Denying civil liberties to people because they violated a regulation of their Visa does NOT justify treating them like a terrorist. It does not.

Second "Racial Profiling" is "Racist". As a matter of fact, it has the word Racial in it. Using Racial Profiling is ILLEGAL and immoral Mr. Ford. Further, it doesn't help you capture those responsible.

Third, you completly DENY that people are improperly imprisoned and even EXECUTED in this country because of their race. Go look up the "Innocents Project" on the internet.

The US government did destroy the lives of many Arab familes in this country that did nothing wrong. They improperly detained, charged with bogus crimes, and many were forced to leave the country. They did nothing wrong. They committed no crime. I know this because I saw it happen. It is sad to say the least. For this reason, GW Bush is going to lose the Middle Easterner vote.

What blows my mind is that you fail to see the racism, bigotry and improper treatment of minorties in this country. You will not even acknowledge that it exists. You promote and see nothing wrong with racial profiling. You deny that Blacks, Arabs, Hispanics, Gays and other minorities are treated differently then Whites in the Country. This is not an accusation Mr. Ford. This is something that you admitted to.

It surprises me that you are able to even function in the state of California.

Take Care

[Donovan]

Mr. Fresh,

I don't know if you are racist or not. I just know that your jokes are offense. And letting you know. I sometime accidently say things that are racists or offensive to people, they point it out, and I either choose to correct myself or choose to continue to offend people. I don't fly off the cuff and try to deny I am not a racist.
Everyone is racist, or a bigot in one regard or another. I have a hard time not stereotyping Southerns.

I will give you credit though. You are not arguing that "racial profiling" is not racist. Which in my opinion is a big plus.

[Donovan]

Donovan,

If the police are searching for a caucasian male suspected of rape and they stop and question me, a white male, should I complain?  I was once detained in such a situation because I looked close to a campus rapist.  They checked into my alibi, namely being in another state for all of the crimes, and let me go.

I was a victim of profiling.  I did nothing wrong, but was treated like a criminal.  I have no complaints because the police were doing their job. 

The people who violated their visas and were detained did commit a crime.  The police arrested them on suspicion of a visa violation and what do you know, they did violate their visa.  Enforcing the law is not criminal, not enforcing it is.

The moral of the story is that if you are arab you should not violate your visa.  SHould the INS round up all visa violators?  Yes.  And they have improved cracking down on all visa violators.  But when theyt started the crackdown should they have focused on Europeans or people from the same nations as teh torrorists?

Mr. Tedrick,
In many cases, they did not violate their Visas. It was proven that were innocent. In the case of the man in my Community, he was detained for about 2 years. They would not let him even go home. He didn't commit a crime and was held for two years on bogus charges. Many other Arabs confessed to crimes so that they could get off on lesser sentences because they didn't have the resources to fend off the $250,000 legal assault by the US government.
You as taxpayer should be upset that they are spending $250,000 a person to prosecute people that are not guilty of a crime.


But when they started the crackdown should they have focused on Europeans or people from the same nations as teh torrorists?

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Second,
If you are going after people on Visa Charges, you should start with people committing the biggest crimes. We don't stop crime by first harassing all the Blacks, then the Hispanics, then the Asians. No, we start looking for the Murderers, then the abductors, then the Rapists. Start with most serious crimes. Not the color of skin. 

Moreover, you know as well as I do that they are not going to even start after the White Visa violators.

Third,

If you are going to go after people who are terrorists, you should go after people that are able to organize the crime. Instead, the US government goes after young Arabic men 18-35. Sorry, but young Arabic men on college campuses don't have the time, money, or resources to coordinate a terrorist attack on the United States. I will tell you who does. They are wealthy and have diplomatic immunity, and many were flown out of here by the FBI and the President after September 11th.

Harassing and detaining people 18-35 that are Arabs and not bothering anybody only hurts this country. What happens is when you take those Arabs away when they didn't do anything wrong, their wives call and write home to their fathers, uncles, and brothers. They tell them how the government is harassing them, how they one night were swept away. They say how the children won't stop crying and they don't know what to do. They don't know how to get around town, or to get food. They don't know what their rights are or when they will see their husband again.
All these communities in the Middle East get these reports from 10,000's of family members in the United States. They know that their family members are innocent. Therefore, they grow very angry at the United States. Then what happens in is that the entire Middle East finds out about this and decides that they don't like the US and are less likely to assist the United States in helping to fight real terrorists. This places people, like our boys and girls in uniform over there, in grave danger. Terrorists and others that hate the US are emboldened to commit crimes and violent acts against the US and their allies. They feel vindicated the US likes to harass the innocent and victimize children and women.

I suggest if we want to be treated well in Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, that we treat their citizens as innocent until proven guilty. That we not beat them while in prison. That we not assume that all Arabs are evil until proven otherwise. That we give them the respect that we give all others.

If they violate their Visa then punish them according to their crime, or deport them, don't treat them like a terrorist. There is a reason why the Middle East hates the US. I believe part of that reason is the arrogance that we have about others, and the blatant disrespect we give them at times.

Take Care

[Donovan]

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

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Here you go. He is not the only one.

http://www.samiomar.com/

[Donovan]

It would be nice if the font was large enough where I could actually read his page.

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It is large enough on my computer. But you can try copying the text, pasting it in "Word" and then enlarging the font.

[Donovan]

States,

Basically the guy was running websites that included incitements to violence against Jews and Americans.  The clear and present danger doctrine comes into play here pretty easily.

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Mr. Ford,

that was the charge against him. A court of law proved that to be incorrect and the whole story was made up.


See what I mean. The Feds make a charge, he is found guilty by American citizens, and you still think the guy is gulity. Why because he is an Arab?

The man (Sami) organized a blood drive and saved many victims of 911, What have you do Mr. Ford? Sit around and say kill all the Arabs?

[Donovan]

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Fundamentalist Islamic males from 18-35 are a threat to our national security. We don't know which ones are terrorists or are plotting/planning and which ones are innocent. I suggest a FDR style approach to this threat.

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You want to put all Arabs in Concentration Camps?
What do think the reponse to that would be by Arabs and Muslims to whites living in Indonesia and the Middle East?

[Donovan]

You are clearly correct that they will nto start in on white visa violators.  You cannot start what is already finished.  The INS has mostly cleared its books in visa violators.  They knew they had to buckled down and look good before they all lost their jobs.  WHile there are  certainly still some people here who have violated their visas, they ar efar les sin number now than in a long, long time.

Where is the evidence that most people who were arrested and detained were not in violation of their visa?  This runs counter to the evidence you yourself posted earlier.

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

Here is a link that proves he was found innocent of all charges:

http://www.klewtv.com/x5781.xml?ParentPageID=x5649&ContentID=x55909&Layout=KLEW.xsl&AdGroupID=x5781

Now tell me that this was fair. Over 1 and 1/2 years in jail for nothing. It was all fabricated by the Feds. Do a google search on the him.

"Sami Omar Al-Hussayen"

Just look at the pain prejudism and racial profiling can cause a family and a community.

[Donovan]

I would tend to think that hindsight proved that it was not needed. US-Japanese men fought very well against the Germans and helped to free the world you are now living in.

[Donovan]

This guy had his defense funded by the Saudi government and the folks at CAIR (where Husseyn was a high ranking member) and they bought a hihg priced legal team that during jury selection put a bunch of doves on the jury.  The aquittal came because of jury selection, and thats one of the reasons he cut a plea bargain to be deportyed before facing more charges.  The prosecutors learned their lesson.

La Di Dah, so why have a trial then Mr. Ford, kill him, tag him, and bag him huh!

You are incorrect that he cut a plea bargain to be deported. He wanted to be deported long before this. The government would not let him go.

True, after a long period of time, the Saudi Government paid for his defense, as they did many others in the US.
But the entire community that knows him, knows he didn't do this.

Nevin, is not a high price lawyer. He is a normal lawyer from Boise Idaho. The team consisted of two lawyers against the Federal Government with a huge budget.

Jury selection does make a difference. But it was also not a jury of his peers was it? And if you believe that Boise Idaho is full of doves, you have screw loose.

You obviously were not at the trial, or read the transcripts. He was acquitted because it was demonstrated that he didn't have any connection to the organizations the government claimed he did.

Apparently, the entire community he lived in, dozens of law professors, every reporter at the trial, and even former members of the prosecution thought Sami was innocent. But you, sitting 1000 miles away, know better don't you Mr. Ford?
The government messed up. They spend huge sums of money and all of their charges were based on crimes committed over the internet that were knocked down by computer expert after computer expert. I even talked to them myself.
They didn’t want to look like idiots that wasted tons of money on nothing. So they kept after him.

Sami was charged with one basic kind of crime, that he entered the United States to run a web ring of terrorist sites.

Why would Sami enter the country to run a terrorist website when he could have run a website from anywhere in the World???


I think it is clear that you are the one ignoring the evidence.
You didn't know Sami, or his family. You don't know his community, you don't know what he did for the people here. You don't know how much he was against Sept 11th. and how he motivated people to help out the victims. You just sit on your butt in california and make unfair judgements against people you don't know based on their race and only the misinformation a bunch of misguided blood thirsty vengent Feds want you hear and know.

[Donovan]

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No I don't find it odd at all that investigators investigating a crime, discover, in the course of that investigation, some other crime.   That, frankly, occurs a lot.

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Either do I. And I never asked that question.

I'm also aware, as noted in the articles, that there are deportation hearings.  One of my friends has applied for assylum and is going through the process.

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Good for him, I think.

Most my posts reflect my perception of reality. And your posts don't reflect mine. That is why everyone communicates with each other.

Things are much different in my world than in your. In your world, you cannot live on $800 a month. In mine I can. Rent is cheap, about $400 a month for a large two bedroom apartment. Parking is free. About 70% of the people over 22 in my town have at least one college degree. 10%, or about 1 in 10 has a PhD or Professional degree. You also cannot go anywhere without someone knowing who you are. And if you don't know the person next to you, someone you know knows them.

In your world it is congested, overpopulated, and more conservative. Your population is less educated. Parking is hard to find. Rent near downtown is prohibative. You would never work for less than $20 a hour. And most of all, nobody knows each other.

Your reality sucks bigtime. I like mine so much better.

In terms of world view. I think most the world 60% + agrees with me on most social issues over you.

Take Care

[Donovan]

This was just sooooo good, I just to quote it:

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No I don't find it odd at all that investigators investigating a crime, discover, in the course of that investigation, some other crime.   That, frankly, occurs a lot.

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Either do I. And I never asked that question.

I'm also aware, as noted in the articles, that there are deportation hearings.  One of my friends has applied for assylum and is going through the process.

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Good for him, I think.

Most my posts reflect my perception of reality. And your posts don't reflect mine. That is why everyone communicates with each other.

Things are much different in my world than in your. In your world, you cannot live on $800 a month. In mine I can. Rent is cheap, about $400 a month for a large two bedroom apartment. Parking is free. About 70% of the people over 22 in my town have at least one college degree. 10%, or about 1 in 10 has a PhD or Professional degree. You also cannot go anywhere without someone knowing who you are. And if you don't know the person next to you, someone you know knows them.

In your world it is congested, overpopulated, and more conservative. Your population is less educated. Parking is hard to find. Rent near downtown is prohibative. You would never work for less than $20 a hour. And most of all, nobody knows each other.

Your reality sucks bigtime. I like mine so much better.

In terms of world view. I think most the world 60% + agrees with me on most social issues over you.

Take Care

First, yes you did ask the question:

JJ,

Don't you find it odd that they only enforce the 100+ restrictions of Visa's on Arab vistors, and only after 2001? Funny, how that is.

You can't even keep the story in own post straight.  That little mark (?), called a "question mark," usually indicates a question.

I hate to tell you this, but in my world, in my neighborhood, if you are paying $400 for a large two bedroom appartment, you are being robbed.  The rents for houses, not appartments, in my neighborhood doesn't reach $800 per month, and of course, most people own them.  Actually, I generally have no problem parking in my neighborhood and the care is about 12 from the front door right now; I don't pay anything for it.  Like I said, your posts bear no resemblance to reality.

I don't know where your reality is; it sounds like Fantasyland, perhaps a kindgom existing only in your own mind.  Generally there is treatment for this type of perception of reality.

I really have not ask 60% of the world what they think about these "social issues."  I really don't know too many countries that say, "Oh we really want to come in here and violate our laws relating to immigration."  Would you care to name a few?  (Note the question mark.)

I am aware that the 60% of the world that you speak of is not able to vote in US presidential election.  In some countries, they can't vote in their own, just like the Iraqis couldn't, at least with a choice between competing candidates.   Don't worry, I have no plans to vote in theirs in January.

JJ,

You expect the people on this forum to believe that PA rent is less than $400 a month, you are the one in need of treatment my friend.

Go here: http://www.forrent.com/search/default.asp?city=&state=PA&nearby=1&price_min=250&price_max=500&errormsg=Please%20specify%20a%20city%20and%20state%20or%20choose%20a%20metro%20area%20from%20the%20selections%20below. Find me a place under $400 a month that is 2 bedroom in the entire state?

Take Care

[Donovan]

You are clearly correct that they will nto start in on white visa violators.  You cannot start what is already finished.  The INS has mostly cleared its books in visa violators.  They knew they had to buckled down and look good before they all lost their jobs.  WHile there are  certainly still some people here who have violated their visas, they ar efar les sin number now than in a long, long time.

Where is the evidence that most people who were arrested and detained were not in violation of their visa?  This runs counter to the evidence you yourself posted earlier.

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

Here is a link that proves he was found innocent of all charges:

http://www.klewtv.com/x5781.xml?ParentPageID=x5649&ContentID=x55909&Layout=KLEW.xsl&AdGroupID=x5781

Now tell me that this was fair. Over 1 and 1/2 years in jail for nothing. It was all fabricated by the Feds. Do a google search on the him.

"Sami Omar Al-Hussayen"

Just look at the pain prejudism and racial profiling can cause a family and a community.


Question #1: Orenthal James Simpson was found not guilty of murder by a jury.   Does that mean he did not commit the crime?

Well, for one, OJ was tried by other African Americans. Sami was tried from a Jury of white people from the second most conservative state in the Union. Second, the case against him was build on the idea that he came into this country to run terror related websites. This holds no merit because it would have been easier for him to run terrorist websites from the Middle East then Idaho. He didn't need to come here to do that. Makes no sense. Third, the computer experts testified and showed in court that it was impossible for Sami to do what they said he was doing. Fourth, all of their tape records of Sami and his wife were translated and read to the jury who found nothing in it that suggest any hint of terrorist planning. Finally, how do you disprove a negative?

Question #2:  What were the lesser remaining charges?

 I don't know all of the charges, just that they were all proven false by the jury and related to stuff he did on the internet.

Question #3: There appears to be a gap in time from the first site you link to the second site.  What happened that the government manmaged to keep him jailed in that time?

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The government kept him locked up for all that time. The gap in time on the page was because the family was deported because they couldn't stay if he wasn't finishing his degree. Which he couldn't because he was in jail.