Kerry : Tora Bora reference

[The Duke]

The reason we didn't send in our own people was

1. The Afghans knew the terrain better, since they live there, and it would have been unnecessarily hazardous to our soldiers to send them into heinous terrain when we didn't even have good maps of the area.

2. We lacked the capability to deploy large numbers of troops rapidly, we had neither the airlift capacity nor the regional bases that are needed to do what Kerry talked about doing.

[The Duke]

Someone deleted one of my posts.  I must have been too insulting.  Oh well, lets see if any more get deleted for the insults.

First, the reason we don't know for fact that Bin Laudin was in the area at the time was because Bush did not allow US Troops to pursue the enemy. He wanted to wait, which allowed the Taliban to escape.

Bush didn't make those tactical decisions, Tommy Franks did.

Why would Franks not rush US heavy infantry into Tora Bora?  Could it be because the US did not have adequate maps of the area and what experience they did have in the region told them that even good maps might be inadequate for navigation?  Might it just be smarter to hand the job to local troops who are present in greater number and have firsthand knowledge of the terrain?

Second, it didn't matter if Bin Laudin was there or not. Is was confirmed that nearly 1000 enemy troops that helped and planned in the destruction of  the World Trade Center and were harboring those that helped kill 3,000+ US citizens were in the area. If that isn't enough reason enough to go in for a kill, what is?

Hence we sent in tribal allies supported by US airpower to root them out.

Third, the reports of Bin Laudin being in the Tora Bora region were creditable enough to be considered the MOST likely location of Bin Laudin.

Hence we sent in tribal allies supported by US airpower to root them out.

However, Kerry didn't say, "It was likely that UBL was at Tora Bora."  He said he knows for sure that UBL was at Tora Bora, which is simply wrong.  We have no conclusive evidence of his whereabouts now or then.

Fourth, we should have attacked all areas believed to be harboring Bin Laudin with US Troops to make sure he was dead.

With limited forces present, due to airlift constraints as I said, they have to prioritized.  This puts a higher standard on what intelligence is actionable than what exists in a place where we have more troops.

Finally, if the CURRENT tactics are so GOOD, why are most of our troops entangled in another irrelevant war, and how come Bin Laudin is sitting in Pakistan laughing at us, most likely plotting against the US again more than 3 years later?

This is not a question of tactics, but of strategy.

I am quite happy to justify the Iraq invasion with hard evidence of Iraq support for terrorist attacks against the US and American citizens abroad.

US military commanders have been quite consistent in their view of whether heavy divisions (the primary force type in Iraq right now) would be of utility in Afghanistan.  There verdict is that the impact would be negligible, even in massed numbers.

UBL's whereabouts are not known, nor is it known if he is alive.  My guess is that he is not.

Face it, Bush messed up. He gave Bin Laudin a 6-week head start, gave all of the Bin Laudins in the US a first class flight back home to Saudi Arabia losing invaluable intelligence, and this has made the US incapable of capturing Bin Laudin.

What six-week head start?  We began the attack on Afghanistan 26 days after 9/11.  The speed of our response is unprecedented in world history.  Never has a force responded so successfully to a threat so quickly when that threat was so far away.

The Saudi flights were approved by the FBI and the head of the counter terrorism center, Dick Clarke, not the President or an political appointee at the White House.  There was no Saudi that we wanted to interview that we didn't get to interview.

Any competent President would have captured and/or killed Bin Laudin within a year's time or put forth the entire military to do so. Now we may never get Bin Laudin.

Would you have said the same about Hitler?  Hirohito?  Mussolini?  Jeferson Davis?

I can see it now, at a George McClellan rally.

"If Lincoln were competent we'd control the whole of the confederacy by now."

The slap in the face is that Bush didn't allow our troops to do their job, and the Bush is not intelligent enough to capture Bin Laudin..

It is a slap in the face that you feel entitled to talk to me.

[The Duke]

JJ,

Don't you find it odd that they only enforce the 100+ restrictions of Visa's on Arab vistors, and only after 2001? Funny, how that is.

If you bothered to even read Visa restrictions you find out that about 99% of them violate at least one of them. So enforcing the law was never the issue. We have about 2-3 million illegal immigrants roaming the streets of Southwestern States.

It is obvious if you know any of these Arabs in the US that it is all BS. Many of Visa violations are also later to be found not in violation. I know that was the case in many of them.

The reason they charge with violation of the Visa is because you cannot argue against them in court, INS has total control.

1. Just because you don't arrest every VISA violator doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't arrest some of them.

2. A finding that no violation of immigration laws has taken place only entitles the defendant to relase, not the right to never be detained.

[The Duke]

1. Just because you don't arrest every VISA violator doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't arrest some of them.

2. A finding that no violation of immigration laws has taken place only entitles the defendant to relase, not the right to never be detained.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Did I state that you shouldn't arrest some of them if they broke the law? No, I did not. Only enforcing laws against one group of people and not another on the basis or ethnic background is still discrimination. Further, how are you enforcing the law if all of the people you arrest are found not guilty of breaking any laws?

I guess all those Arab deserve to be seperated from their families for year or more because they decided to be Arab in a bigoted land.

You be seperated from your family for a year in tiny 8X10 cell with no windows, after being as law abiding as you can, Mr. Ford, then come back to me and tell me how it was all justified.

They weren't law biding citizens, they were in violation of their Visas.

[The Duke]

I favor full enforcement of immigration laws.  Every time I see a step in that direction, it pleases me.  I have every right to favor the detainment of all suspected Visa violators and every right to favor the detainment of only certain groups of Visa violators, seeing as that partial detainment is a step towards the full goal.  I also have every right to understand that the government must prioritize its suspects, and not spend the bulk of its resources chasiung Mexican day laborers when the threat is from Arab and Muslim foreigners who (like many of the hijackers on 9/11) had violated their Visas.  What would the reaction be from this country if the government had allowed thousands of people who are here illegally in violation of their Visas to continue about their day and as a result even one of them launches a terrorist attack?

Millions of people all over the country are wrongfully arrested.  They are given due process and set free, just as these Visa violators were.

Every sane person supports racial prfiling at this point.  Anyone who doesn't has some kind of suicide complex.

[The Duke]

I favor full enforcement of immigration laws.  Every time I see a step in that direction, it pleases me.  I have every right to favor the detainment of all suspected Visa violators and every right to favor the detainment of only certain groups of Visa violators, seeing as that partial detainment is a step towards the full goal.  I also have every right to understand that the government must prioritize its suspects, and not spend the bulk of its resources chasiung Mexican day laborers when the threat is from Arab and Muslim foreigners who (like many of the hijackers on 9/11) had violated their Visas.  What would the reaction be from this country if the government had allowed thousands of people who are here illegally in violation of their Visas to continue about their day and as a result even one of them launches a terrorist attack?

Millions of people all over the country are wrongfully arrested.  They are given due process and set free, just as these Visa violators were.

Every sane person supports racial prfiling at this point.  Anyone who doesn't has some kind of suicide complex.

Well, first let me point out the hijackers of 9/11 were not in violation of their Visas.

Second, now that you proudly admit your bigotry I think I have made my case; That you have to be a bigot to support Bush in this policy. You have made my case very clear.

Sanity is not being parinoid about all Arab Americans, that is called Stupidity. Just like the idiots that killed Arabs and Indians on 9/12/01.

I am fine with you thinking that illegal detainment and abuse of power by Government Officials is OK so long as it is done to people based on race only and not your and family.

You have every right to be a bigot and think that Arabs are all a threat to Americans and planning to kill you. I just wanted people on this forum to see that is the way you think that basis for your reasoning. Thanks for making my case.

Now let us not hope that a White Guy kills a bunch of people in terorist attack, oh wait, what about Timothy McVeigh?

First of all, the FBI already does profiling of people it thinks might be skinhead wackjobs, and I support this profiling as well.  Still think the government and I are just out to get Arabs?  Suspect profiling is not racism, its good police work.  Any one with a brain knows that you do profiles of suspects, and the suspect profile for an Al-Qaeda memebr probably includes being Moslem.

As foir the 9/11 hijackers, actually they did violate their Visas.  In fact, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Satam al-Suqami were guilty of the EXACT violation all those Arabs were rounded up for post-9/11.  Get your facts traight.

[The Duke]

There actually is a difference beween violating a Visa and violating  "some aspect of immigration U.S. laws".

Yes, and the two who overstayed their Visas were, duh, in violation of their Visas.

You also would not be able to even obtain that information if Bush had his way because he opposed the 9/11 commission.

So what?  If you want to argue with Bush, write him a letter.  For now, you’re arguing with me.

Second, comparing all Arabs to the same catagory as "Wacko Skinheads" is another example of your narrow minded bigoted way of thinging.

I didn’t say all Arabs are equal to skinhead nutjobs.  Here is what was actually said:

Now let us not hope that a White Guy kills a bunch of people in terorist attack, oh wait, what about Timothy McVeigh?

First of all, the FBI already does profiling of people it thinks might be skinhead wackjobs.

You wondered aloud what the FBI would do to catch white terrorists, implying that they didn’t profile white terrorists and this was a sign of racism.  I pointed out that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

As for your new line of attack, that I compared Arabs to skinheads, wrong.  The whole point of profiling is to narrow a target population down to increase the likelihood of catching a terrorist.  Knowing someone’s ethnicity is Arab is important for profiling Al Qaeda.  It is necessary but not sufficient.  Knowing that someone has a buzzed head is necessary, but not sufficient, for profiling the McVeigh’s of the world.

Third, find me ONE immigrant that has not violated at least ONE of the thousands of immigration laws and Visa regualtions?

Most immigrants do not violate their Visas, but that isn’t relevant to the conversation.  We rounded up a string of Visa violators, well within our rights as a country, and detained them for perfectly legitimate questioning.

Finally, if it truly is that the Visa violators are indeed the terrorists, then they should be arresting them, not people that didn't have Visa violations and just happen to be Arab like they did with the Arabs in my Community.

Visa violators are not necessarily terrorists, nor are terrorists necessarily Visa violators, but if you have a fake or expired Visa from a high risk Middle Eastern country, you are a likely individual to be profiled and you should be.

Second, the trouble with terrorism is that this one crime you can’t wait on.  Once some one sets off a dirty bomb or suitcase nuke it’s a little late to press charges.  It would be laughable for the FBI to have pressed charges posthumously against Mohammed Atta.

How would you feel if the government terrorized your family, locked you up and accused you of 12 crimes they KNEW were a lie, and keep you locked up for some silly law for 16 months until you confessed to a major crime you didn't commit? How would you feel if your wife and children were not given food, clothing, shelter, and support while you were detained?

If I was in violation of federal immigration laws, what room would I have to complain?

Does at least, in your warped sense of Justice, the 3 year-old boy that is as much a US citizen as you and I deserve the right to food, clothing, and shelter while his dad is locked up for two years on pending charges?

The child receives AFDC benefits under US law..

What part of "Equality for All" are you unclear about?

Why is that in quotes?

[The Duke]

No one was detained for being Arab.  They were held on Visa violations.  Simply because the charge is not borne out does not mean it was a falsified charge.  People of all races are wrongfully arrested everyday.

I didn't say AFDC benefits were recieved, I said the children were entitled to benefits.  If no AFDC benefits were recieved, then the behavior of the government was not in line with the law.

Again, why is "Equality for All" in qutoes?

[The Duke]

No one was detained for being Arab.  

Well, you go right ahead and believe that in your fantasy world Mr. Ford. Discrimination doesn't exist in the United States. People are not detained for being Arab. People are not killed for being Black. And Gays are not denied marriage. What a wonderful world you live in. Must be nice to be a white, heterosexual, rich, male huh?

Take Care.

When did I disclose my ethnicity, gender, or income in this debate?

This is so typical of the left to claim racism, classism, or sexism any tinme they lose an argument, building upm their little straw men instead of accepting reality.  You have been caught in close to a dozen falsehoods and outright lies in thei debate by both me and others, and now you can't stand the heat.

[The Duke]

Anyway it is nice to be a rich white male heterosexual professional contributing member of the ruling class patriachal elite.  Oh yes.  It feels so nice.  Before I tear down the dominant paradigm and rebuild society for the grassroots up, can I bask in the warm glow of my divine right for a minute?  Just of few glorius seconds more?  Must we rush off to some PC utopia of idealistic moralism and enlighened multiculturalism?  Whats so bad about facing up to our duty to shoulder the burdon of our birthright?  Our duty to show the wogs the way to the promised land of freedom.  The way of carefree plastic consumerism.  The way is clear.  We must educate the poor unwashed masses into a better way.

Feeling uppity today?

I was just pissed at this guy who won't argue his points and just calls people racist if they don't agree with him.  You've always had the guts to defend your beliefs legitimately, freedomburns, I respect that.  Guys like Donovan just tick me off, though.

[The Duke]

This is what I mean.

Donovan, you claimed that I was a lair for saying that some of the 9/11 hijackers had violated their Visas.  Then I prove that some did in fact violate their Visas.  Then you claim "I don't care about Visas".  As soon as you get hammerred on a point, you back away and revert to your default claim of racism.

Profiling is not discrimination.  Suspect profiling is an integral part of police work.  Take a look at what the suspect profile is for a serial killer, and you'll see that the profile is a white male.  If profiling was racism wouldn't it just be some Puerto Rican guy or something?  Of course, but that doesn't fit into your warped victim mentality.  So isntead of dealing honestly with issues, you lie, slander, and distort.

[The Duke]

You are clearly correct that they will nto start in on white visa violators.  You cannot start what is already finished.  The INS has mostly cleared its books in visa violators.  They knew they had to buckled down and look good before they all lost their jobs.  WHile there are  certainly still some people here who have violated their visas, they ar efar les sin number now than in a long, long time.

Where is the evidence that most people who were arrested and detained were not in violation of their visa?  This runs counter to the evidence you yourself posted earlier.

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

Forget his guy, Tredrick.  He'll just name call and ignore facts.  You could go insane talking to someone like this for too long.

[The Duke]

When bush gets it right he's the greatest leader since Hannibal.
when he's wrong it's his subordinates fault.

Actually, I've done nothing but defend the decisions made at Tora Bora no matter who made them.

[The Duke]

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Here you go. He is not the only one.

http://www.samiomar.com/

It would be nice if the font was large enough where I could actually read his page.

States,

Basically the guy was running websites that included incitements to violence against Jews and Americans.  The clear and present danger doctrine comes into play here pretty easily.

[The Duke]

This guy had his defense funded by the Saudi government and the folks at CAIR (where Husseyn was a high ranking member) and they bought a hihg priced legal team that during jury selection put a bunch of doves on the jury.  The aquittal came because of jury selection, and thats one of the reasons he cut a plea bargain to be deportyed before facing more charges.  The prosecutors learned their lesson.

[The Duke]

Now that I'm back in LA, I see Donovan has said another false statement.

Sami did in fact cut a deal.  He agreed to deportation in exchange for additional Visa charges being dropped.

Second, do you think there aren't 12 doves in Boise?  Do you think there aren't 12 hawks in LA?

[The Duke]

1. I neve rsaid he came to the US solely for the purpose of runnning the website.  I said he was running the website while in the US.  If you can find a quote where I said he came here solely to run the website, find it.  Until then, grow up and stick to the facts.  Don't put words in people's mouths.  Don't spin.  Don't lie.  Don't troll.

2. You made no effort to refute the simple claim I made that Sami in fact did cut  a plea bargain, echanging the dropping of 8 additional charges and accepting the penalty of deportation.  Just like the "No Visa violation" claim, your argument is built on a house of cards.  Eventually, you had to recant your false claim, lets see if you're willing to recant this second false premise.

3. There are not only more than just 12 doves in Idaho, there are whole counties of them.  Look at 2000 (one county).



And 1996 (four counties).



Yes, Virginia, there really are liberals in Idaho.

Again and again, when beaten on substance, you continue with logic fallacies (the argument to authority that you are right because you lived in Boise) to slander (the argument that anyone who disagrees with you is a racist).  Its shameful and insulting, and you are a distraction to these boards like all trolls before you.

[The Duke]

For old times sake.

[The Duke]

Look, I don't have time to rebut everything you said because its not that important.  I'll just hit the main ones and then I'll leave you be.

I am not obsessed with this case.  You brought it up as evidence that the government is a bunch of lying bigots (a theme in your posts is that anyone who disagrees is a racist) and I refuted point after point.  This thread is about Tora Bora, and until you dropped in with your victim stories, we were having a lively talk about something important.  Any point I didn't refute was refuted by another poster, such as your fallacy that aquittal means you are actually innocent.  I had never heard of this case before you brought it up, and after researching the case (by googling it, per your request at the bottom of page 4) I found your argument to be lacking.

I am not a teenager.  For someone who claims "Well you did it with you statements. And sorry to say,  I looked you up and researched you on the internet. Not so hard. You are connected to the internet right now.", it seems my age eludes you.  It's in my profile btw.  I'm 20.

Sami Omar was connected to CAIR, and Bessam Khafagi, one of the many other former Idaho students arrested in the FBI sting that caught Sami Omar Hussein, was one of the higher ranking folks at the CAIR central office in DC.

The point of the electoral maps is not to demand a jury from 8 years ago, it is disprove your characterization of Idaho as a redneck, back country, dissent free, Bush backing state.  There are liberals in Idaho, so your characterization that oh even in Idaho they think he's guilt was bunk from moment one.

This thread is about Tora Bora, as I said before, and if anyone from the 51% who claim the US government intentionally let a wanted terrorist slip away at Tora Bora wants to debate that point with me, they should try now.  I will make no more comments on Sami Omar Husseyn, since he is not the topic of the thread, and I've already won the point anyway.