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  Presidential Parliamentarian (Discussion Open)
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persepolis
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2009, 06:56:25 pm »

I agree with Senator Leif. The President should be able to check the power of the PM, since that is part of the reason this office would be in place in the first place.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2009, 06:58:19 pm »

I think that the plan we had devised was that the Prime Minister would be in charge of the legislature, leading legislative initiatives, picking cabinet members (who would function something like American committee chairs), and setting the national policy. The President, on the other hand, would be more of a popular representative of the people, in charge of kind of checking the parliament, given the ability to veto, some legislative abilities (either introducing his own bills in a special legislative slot or putting certain bills up to national referenda), and given some ability over dismissing prime ministers and dissolving parliaments.

     I must say this is better than the alternatives proposed.

Now all that has to be done is writing that more formally. Tongue
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2009, 09:25:13 pm »

     Saying as a private citizen, I have a few ideas to turn this into something I really want Atlasia's government to look like. If someone is interested I could suggest some of them to be brought as a motion.
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Devilman88
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2009, 09:55:44 pm »

     Saying as a private citizen, I have a few ideas to turn this into something I really want Atlasia's government to look like. If someone is interested I could suggest some of them to be brought as a motion.

What are the ideas that you have?
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2009, 10:01:50 pm »

     Saying as a private citizen, I have a few ideas to turn this into something I really want Atlasia's government to look like. If someone is interested I could suggest some of them to be brought as a motion.

What are the ideas that you have?

     Purple State suggested that I should air them out in the Presidential Universalism thread since that one is so far unused.
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Devilman88
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2009, 10:05:02 pm »

     Saying as a private citizen, I have a few ideas to turn this into something I really want Atlasia's government to look like. If someone is interested I could suggest some of them to be brought as a motion.

What are the ideas that you have?

     Purple State suggested that I should air them out in the Presidential Universalism thread since that one is so far unused.

Ok going to go look..
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Purple State
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« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2009, 09:24:59 am »

I just want to say that I think, as has been mentioned before, the President needs to have some good old fashioned power in this kind of government. A special slot for legislation, some veto capability, appointing the judiciary, etc. A figurehead serves no purpose in Atlasia.

Would anyone like to address how parties will work in this system? I would imagine they are less meaningful in a system like this than in a Universal system, but what would PM elections look like?
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Lief 🐋
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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2009, 12:13:10 pm »

Parties would indeed be more meaningful than they currently are, as who the Prime Minister is, as well as his cabinet, would rest largely on the alliances between parties.
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Purple State
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« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2009, 12:34:58 pm »

Parties would indeed be more meaningful than they currently are, as who the Prime Minister is, as well as his cabinet, would rest largely on the alliances between parties.

But would an expanded Senate of 15 or so members have enough presence to really allow meaningful compromise to occur on this front? It largely rests on the way parties develop. If we see a large center right party and a large center left party develop, there could just be partisan bickering. But if we see small "interest group"-like parties, this could be very interesting.

Perhaps we set a cap for party membership? It would make membership more meaningful, loyalty more important for remaining in the party, party alliances more important, and political oustings a fun addition to the game (albeit controversial). This could lead to the constant formation of new parties, party changing, etc.
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Lief 🐋
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« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2009, 01:13:58 pm »

Parties would indeed be more meaningful than they currently are, as who the Prime Minister is, as well as his cabinet, would rest largely on the alliances between parties.

But would an expanded Senate of 15 or so members have enough presence to really allow meaningful compromise to occur on this front? It largely rests on the way parties develop. If we see a large center right party and a large center left party develop, there could just be partisan bickering. But if we see small "interest group"-like parties, this could be very interesting.

Perhaps we set a cap for party membership? It would make membership more meaningful, loyalty more important for remaining in the party, party alliances more important, and political oustings a fun addition to the game (albeit controversial). This could lead to the constant formation of new parties, party changing, etc.

Well, that's why I would support a very proportional system, so that a smaller, "interest group" party, as you put it, would have the chance to get a seat or two. While they would have very little traditional say, they could be very important if one of the larger center-right or center-left party needs a coalition partner to give them majority control of the chamber.
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« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2009, 01:30:21 pm »

I very much like this idea of list PR proposed by Lief. Very much so. I hope it gets attention.
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Lief 🐋
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« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2009, 02:08:34 pm »

Realistically though, that would probably be something not contained in the constitution, right? Our current constitution is very vague with regards to how elections are run, if I remember correctly.
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afleitch
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« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2009, 02:36:10 pm »

Realistically though, that would probably be something not contained in the constitution, right? Our current constitution is very vague with regards to how elections are run, if I remember correctly.

It's because our election system has been amended piecemeal to try and suit different demands and tastes over time. Whatever system that is chosen (open PR or party list PR) will to an extent depend on what people want; party based politics or personality based politics (or a mix). I am in favour of a PR system but whether it is a party list should really depend on the government system chosen. In some circumstances it can work very well, in others it may be seen as 'restrictive' if your favoured candidate has been shunted down the list because of party politics. It also cause some pissed off party members quitting and running as a one person list Smiley Which could be a good or a bad thing!

On the issue of the president, in this I agree that he should have powers that act as a counterweight to the PM. I think that was touched upon here; https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=94209.msg1953553#msg1953553
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2009, 08:50:01 pm »

I propose that this proposal be renamed Parliamentarian Bicameralism and be replaced with:

"Small Senate (5ish) with power to originate amend legislation
Relatively large Parliament (15ish) with power to originate legislation
PM elected by both houses, presents agenda, followed by NC vote
PM appoints Cabinet members (either office holders or not)
Possible committees in the Parliament, with chairmen and some form of markup?
President with power to dissolve Parliament, but not Senate (I threw this in. It sorta gives the Senate that more regal feel as well)"
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Devilman88
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2009, 09:29:14 pm »

I propose that this proposal be renamed Parliamentarian Bicameralism and be replaced with:

"Small Senate (5ish) with power to originate amend legislation
Relatively large Parliament (15ish) with power to originate legislation
PM elected by both houses, presents agenda, followed by NC vote
PM appoints Cabinet members (either office holders or not)
Possible committees in the Parliament, with chairmen and some form of markup?
President with power to dissolve Parliament, but not Senate (I threw this in. It sorta gives the Senate that more regal feel as well)"

That sound kinda good.
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Purple State
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2009, 09:45:15 pm »

I propose that this proposal be renamed Parliamentarian Bicameralism and be replaced with:

"Small Senate (5ish) with power to originate amend legislation
Relatively large Parliament (15ish) with power to originate legislation
PM elected by both houses, presents agenda, followed by NC vote
PM appoints Cabinet members (either office holders or not)
Possible committees in the Parliament, with chairmen and some form of markup?
President with power to dissolve Parliament, but not Senate (I threw this in. It sorta gives the Senate that more regal feel as well)"

That sound kinda good.

It's the compromise already being voted on in a different thread and an hour away from passing. If ilikeverin would like to cut down the number of proposals to two, the compromise and universalism, I would recommend he motion to dismiss the this proposal. I don't see that flying with the other delegates though.

Rather than pushing this fight further, try to develop the universalism idea and make it the best option.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2009, 10:20:37 pm »

Okay.

Seeing as there has been no substantive debate for two days, I would like to amend this thread to be titled Presidential Universalism, which constitutes:

  • A President and Vice-President similar to what we have now.
  • An elected Upper House, a Senate, with 15 Senators, elected every two months.
  • A universal Lower House.
  • The abolition of Regions.
  • Cabinet members must be selected from the Senate.
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Devilman88
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2009, 10:28:20 pm »

Okay.

Seeing as there has been no substantive debate for two days, I would like to amend this thread to be titled Presidential Universalism, which constitutes:

  • A President and Vice-President similar to what we have now.
  • An elected Upper House, a Senate, with 15 Senators, elected every two months.
  • A universal Lower House.
  • The abolition of Regions.
  • Cabinet members must be selected from the Senate.

That isn't going to fly, I think the only way to get members active is by the regions. Universalism would just turn things into a joke. If we could reduce the regions to three and let each have Assemblies with a head of government, kinda like the mideast, more people would be active.
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Purple State
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2009, 10:28:33 pm »

Okay.

Seeing as there has been no substantive debate for two days, I would like to amend this thread to be titled Presidential Universalism, which constitutes:

  • A President and Vice-President similar to what we have now.
  • An elected Upper House, a Senate, with 15 Senators, elected every two months.
  • A universal Lower House.
  • The abolition of Regions.
  • Cabinet members must be selected from the Senate.

Do you plan on actually developing that proposal? Or do we just get to edit this and let it die? Seriously, I understand you're frustrated, but you need to let it go and put this effort into the universalism proposal that you've been active in. Work to make your proposal of choice better, rather than all the rest worse. You want to outshine the rest, not be the better of the bad.

Come on now, this Convention isn't about petty differences and rivalries. You lost a vote. It's going to happen from time to time. I didn't go kaboom when it seemed like everyone was preparing to shoot down the initial motion in that thread, something I had been on the verge of lobbying behind. Instead I got everyone to work together and forge a compromise. Let it be.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2009, 10:37:31 pm »

Okay.

Seeing as there has been no substantive debate for two days, I would like to amend this thread to be titled Presidential Universalism, which constitutes:

  • A President and Vice-President similar to what we have now.
  • An elected Upper House, a Senate, with 15 Senators, elected every two months.
  • A universal Lower House.
  • The abolition of Regions.
  • Cabinet members must be selected from the Senate.

Those suggestions work work much better if you took it to an already existing proposal for universalism. Stop trying to be difficult.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2009, 10:46:02 pm »

Okay.

Seeing as there has been no substantive debate for two days, I would like to amend this thread to be titled Presidential Universalism, which constitutes:

  • A President and Vice-President similar to what we have now.
  • An elected Upper House, a Senate, with 15 Senators, elected every two months.
  • A universal Lower House.
  • The abolition of Regions.
  • Cabinet members must be selected from the Senate.

Those suggestions work work much better if you took it to an already existing proposal for universalism. Stop trying to be difficult.

Then shall we shut this thread down?  If universalism is being "taken to" the universalism thread, so should anti-universalism.
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Purple State
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2009, 10:50:41 pm »

Okay.

Seeing as there has been no substantive debate for two days, I would like to amend this thread to be titled Presidential Universalism, which constitutes:

  • A President and Vice-President similar to what we have now.
  • An elected Upper House, a Senate, with 15 Senators, elected every two months.
  • A universal Lower House.
  • The abolition of Regions.
  • Cabinet members must be selected from the Senate.

Those suggestions work work much better if you took it to an already existing proposal for universalism. Stop trying to be difficult.

Then shall we shut this thread down?  If universalism is being "taken to" the universalism thread, so should anti-universalism.

Let my comments be the last word on this. You seem to care a great deal about universalism and its success. So get moving on it.
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« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2009, 07:05:09 am »

If you care about universalism, then debate that in the appropriate thread. Move on that instead of being picky and being difficult. This is frustrating.
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Purple State
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2009, 02:06:33 pm »

If there is no additional substantive discussion on this proposal by Friday at midnight EST I will call for a vote to end discussion and scrap this proposal.

The lack of participation and activity here is unacceptable.

~Presiding Officer Purple State
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Lief 🐋
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« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2009, 10:07:30 pm »

Okay, getting the discussion started again, here's a proposed article one:

Article I. The Parliament

Section 1. Composition and Elections
1. The Parliament of Atlasia shall be composed of 15 Members of Parliament (hereafter referred to as MPs).
2. No Person shall be an MP who has not attained a hundred or more posts and is not a registered voter.
3. All MPs will be elected concurrently, in nationwide proportional elections.
4. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday after the dissolution of Parliament and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later
5. The Parliament shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Parliamentary elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Parliament shall be by public post.
6. Those elected to the Parliament shall take office as soon as the result of their election has been formally declared.
7. If a vacancy shall occur in the Parliament, the party of the MP who has vacated his seat shall have exactly one week after the creation of the vacancy to appoint a new MP. If the vacated seat belonged to an MP who did not align himself with a party, it shall remain vacant until the next election.

Section 2. The Government
1. The Government of Atlasia is composed of the Prime Minister and the Cabinet of Atlasia. The Government is to be selected from and responsible to the Parliament of Atlasia.
2. The Prime Minister is nominated, from among the elected MPs, by the President after the official certification of a Parliamentary election. He must then be confirmed by a majority vote from the Parliament. The President may not nominate an MP for the position of Prime Minister whose government's loss of confidence resulted in the most recent dissolution of Parliament.
3. The Prime Minister shall serve as the Head of Government. He shall be responsible for setting the national policy and leading the legislature. He shall also be responsible for nominating members of the Cabinet and filling any vacancies that may occur.
4. Cabinet ministers shall be responsible for certain policy portfolios and the management of their departments. [I hope Smid doesn't mind I stole that word for word Tongue] The composition and selection of the Cabinet and its members shall be at the discretion of the Prime Minister. The powers and responsible of the Cabinet shall be defined at the discretion of the Parliament.
5. Cabinet Ministers are responsible first and foremost to the Prime Minister, and may be dismissed at his/her discretion. Cabinet Ministers may also be dismissed by a majority vote of the parliament.
6. If the office of the Prime Minister shall fall vacant, then the President must nominate a new Prime Minister to be confirmed by a majority vote of the Parliament.

Section 3. Rules and Operation of Parliament
[1.1 through 1.4 are just the present constitution]
1. The Parliament may establish rules for its own proceedings, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, expel an MP.
2. The Parliament shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum of MPs shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Parliament, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Parliament. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Parliament, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Parliament shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Parliament by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.
4. Whensoever the Parliament shall pass a bill and present it to the President, he shall have the option to redraft the bill and return it to the Parliament in redrafted form. The President shall have this option once with each particular bill presented to him. The original sponsor of the bill, as so defined in Parliamentary rules, shall either file a motion to approve the Presidentís redraft by a simple majority vote, and return it to the President for his signature or veto, or withdraw the bill from the Parliament. If the Parliament approves the President's redraft by a simple majority vote, the redrafted bill shall be returned to the President for his signature or veto. If the Parliament rejects the President's redraft, the original sponsor shall either file a motion to send the original draft of the bill back to the President for his signature or veto, or shall direct the Parliament to resume debate on the bill as presented to the President.
5. The Parliament shall be dissolved after either a successful vote of no confidence against the current Government, a majority vote in favor of dissolution at the Prime Minister's discretion or the discretion of the President. If the Parliament is not dissolved through these means by the end of the fourth month after the official certification of the last election, it shall be automatically dissolved.

Section 4. Impeachment [I don't know if we want to let the Parliament impeach the President or not, but here it is anyway; this is stolen from the current Article 1, Section 2]
1. In the same manner as the proposition of a Bill, Articles of Impeachment may be proposed against the President of Atlasia or any judicial officer of the federal government.
2. The Parliament will be empanelled as a grand jury to consider these Articles of Impeachment; In considering these Articles, the Chief Justice shall preside, unless it is his own impeachment, in which case the President of the Senate shall preside. A majority vote of the Parliament under quorum rules will be necessary to impeach the Officer.
3. The People shall have sole power to try such impeachments. The Chief Justice shall administer a public poll to try the impeachment, unless it is the Chief Justice who shall have been impeached, in which case the Prime Minister shall administer the public poll. The public poll shall be held for one week and shall require the consent of two-thirds voting to convict. Citizens shall make their vote publicly known in the form of a post.
4. Upon conviction by the People, the officer shall be removed from office immediately. Any person convicted upon impeachment shall be disqualified from holding any office under the Republic of Atlasia for a time period explicitly specified in the Articles of Impeachment.

Section 5. Powers of the Parliament
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 6. Powers denied to the Parliament

[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 7. Powers denied to the Regions
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]

[I don't know if we want to do something with the budget; I wasn't around back then, but I hear tell that everyone hated it. If we do want to reintroduce it, it would go here.
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