Can Antiquities of the Jews be proof of Jesus existence and divinity
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  Can Antiquities of the Jews be proof of Jesus existence and divinity
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Author Topic: Can Antiquities of the Jews be proof of Jesus existence and divinity  (Read 757 times)
Hindsight was 2020
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« on: February 14, 2021, 11:58:23 PM »

Titus Flavius Josephus was a first-century Romano-Jewish historian who lived from 37-100 AD. He was a respected figure in the Roman Empire due to a friendship/counselor relationship with Emperor Vespasian. Shortly before he died he made a 20-volume historiographical work on Jewish history known as “Antiquities of the Jews“. In Chapter 3 of book 18 Josephus focuses on Pilate’s time and this noticeable passage is in it.
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About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
Can the fact this man who lived all but within Jesus lifetime and is recounting as a outside historian Jesus and in beat for beat is repeating the main claims of the Bible show that there could be truth to Jesus existence and possibly his divinity?
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Nathan
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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2021, 01:00:19 AM »

You really can't "prove" much of anything about non-royalty from the first century, but most historians consider Josephus one among several documentary sources for Jesus' existence, yes. It's difficult to overstate how fringe mythicism is these days. Getting from there to His divinity, on the other hand, is several steps further than historical methods can or should take us, especially since parts of the passage are almost certainly later interpolations.
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vitoNova
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2021, 01:38:14 PM »

Pontius Pilate was recalled back to Rome due to his brutality in Judea. 

Which is why I LOL at people who blame Jooz for Jeebus' execution and believe all that nonsense in the Holy Buybull. 
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Nathan
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2021, 01:40:29 PM »

Pontius Pilate was recalled back to Rome due to his brutality in Judea. 

Which is why I LOL at people who blame Jooz for Jeebus' execution and believe all that nonsense in the Holy Buybull. 

As is often the case when you post about this, there's a great point buried underneath your signature posting style. Historical-critical scholars are almost universally of the belief that Pilate was much more bent on executing Jesus than the Bible suggests and that the Gospels stressing the culpability of the Jewish leadership instead was a writerly choice with political and strategic dimensions to it.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2021, 02:10:48 PM »

No. Almost all extant copies come from Christian sources which would have a strong motivation to interpolate information concerning Jesus' divinity into it. Origen makes several references to Josephus' works and complains that Josephus did not consider Jesus to be Christ. So while Josephus can be used as evidence that Jesus existed and that some did consider him to be divine, he can't be used as independent confirmation of his divinity.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2021, 02:28:54 PM »

As is often the case when you post about this, there's a great point buried underneath your signature posting style. Historical-critical scholars are almost universally of the belief that Pilate was much more bent on executing Jesus than the Bible suggests and that the Gospels stressing the culpability of the Jewish leadership instead was a writerly choice with political and strategic dimensions to it.
The strongest evidence for this hypothesis is that in Mark, Pontius Pilate is not shown to be as hesitant as he is in the other, later Gospels.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2021, 12:18:30 AM »

As is often the case when you post about this, there's a great point buried underneath your signature posting style. Historical-critical scholars are almost universally of the belief that Pilate was much more bent on executing Jesus than the Bible suggests and that the Gospels stressing the culpability of the Jewish leadership instead was a writerly choice with political and strategic dimensions to it.
The strongest evidence for this hypothesis is that in Mark, Pontius Pilate is not shown to be as hesitant as he is in the other, later Gospels.

The strongest evidence is that crucifixion was a punishment for rebellion against the Roman state. If the Jews had been involved in Jesus' execution then he would have been stoned according to Jewish law.

As for the Testimonium Flavianum, it's a forgery. The argument for Jesus' existence is why would he be made up? It's not like prophets claiming to be the Messiah and founding cults were particularly unusual for the time period. Occam's razor really.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2021, 08:07:17 AM »

As is often the case when you post about this, there's a great point buried underneath your signature posting style. Historical-critical scholars are almost universally of the belief that Pilate was much more bent on executing Jesus than the Bible suggests and that the Gospels stressing the culpability of the Jewish leadership instead was a writerly choice with political and strategic dimensions to it.
The strongest evidence for this hypothesis is that in Mark, Pontius Pilate is not shown to be as hesitant as he is in the other, later Gospels.

The strongest evidence is that crucifixion was a punishment for rebellion against the Roman state. If the Jews had been involved in Jesus' execution then he would have been stoned according to Jewish law.

As for the Testimonium Flavianum, it's a forgery. The argument for Jesus' existence is why would he be made up? It's not like prophets claiming to be the Messiah and founding cults were particularly unusual for the time period. Occam's razor really.

Forgery is a bit strong.  More like there was something fairly objective there originally that proved a tempting target for a later Christian interpolater to add stuff to because it was "missing".
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NYDem
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2021, 04:37:46 PM »

As is often the case when you post about this, there's a great point buried underneath your signature posting style. Historical-critical scholars are almost universally of the belief that Pilate was much more bent on executing Jesus than the Bible suggests and that the Gospels stressing the culpability of the Jewish leadership instead was a writerly choice with political and strategic dimensions to it.
The strongest evidence for this hypothesis is that in Mark, Pontius Pilate is not shown to be as hesitant as he is in the other, later Gospels.

The strongest evidence is that crucifixion was a punishment for rebellion against the Roman state. If the Jews had been involved in Jesus' execution then he would have been stoned according to Jewish law.

Its my impression that while the death penalty technically existed in Jewish Law, it was a dead letter at the time. Is that not accurate?
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bore
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2021, 05:51:39 PM »

If you are hellbent on using Josephus to prove Jesus's existence,  the smart play is to sidestep the Testimonium Flaviam entirely and instead invoke the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9:

Quote
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:

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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2021, 08:43:22 PM »

If you are hellbent on using Josephus to prove Jesus's existence,  the smart play is to sidestep the Testimonium Flaviam entirely and instead invoke the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9:

Quote
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:



Only a few idiots doubt that Yeshua bar Maryam existed or that he was messianic preacher.
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bore
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2021, 08:05:35 AM »

If you are hellbent on using Josephus to prove Jesus's existence,  the smart play is to sidestep the Testimonium Flaviam entirely and instead invoke the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9:

Quote
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:



Only a few idiots doubt that Yeshua bar Maryam existed or that he was messianic preacher.

Well, obviously. But if you're going to argue with idiots you should use an approach that gives them as little to quibble with as possible.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2021, 08:53:20 AM »

If you are hellbent on using Josephus to prove Jesus's existence,  the smart play is to sidestep the Testimonium Flaviam entirely and instead invoke the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9:

Quote
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:



Only a few idiots doubt that Yeshua bar Maryam existed or that he was messianic preacher.

Well, obviously. But if you're going to argue with idiots you should use an approach that gives them as little to quibble with as possible.

I prefer to put idiots on ignore rather than respond to them. (Hint: You're not an idiot. Yet. 😸)
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2021, 12:39:46 PM »

As is often the case when you post about this, there's a great point buried underneath your signature posting style. Historical-critical scholars are almost universally of the belief that Pilate was much more bent on executing Jesus than the Bible suggests and that the Gospels stressing the culpability of the Jewish leadership instead was a writerly choice with political and strategic dimensions to it.
The strongest evidence for this hypothesis is that in Mark, Pontius Pilate is not shown to be as hesitant as he is in the other, later Gospels.

The strongest evidence is that crucifixion was a punishment for rebellion against the Roman state. If the Jews had been involved in Jesus' execution then he would have been stoned according to Jewish law.

Its my impression that while the death penalty technically existed in Jewish Law, it was a dead letter at the time. Is that not accurate?

I think so yes, but the point is that crucifixion was a punishment for rebellion against the Roman state. To have been crucified Jesus would have to have done something against the Roman government in Judea, not merely trespass in some internal Jewish religious dispute Pilate wouldn't care less about.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2021, 04:38:12 PM »
« Edited: February 18, 2021, 07:30:03 PM by Kingpoleon »

The strongest evidence is that crucifixion was a punishment for rebellion against the Roman state. If the Jews had been involved in Jesus' execution then he would have been stoned according to Jewish law.
To the contrary - even the English did not allow their ecclesiastical courts to sentence people to death. The back and forth of court authority is itself, at least in part, probably accurate. The Roman priesthood had been merged with the Imperial authority only with Augustus, and it is unlikely that any consistent difference between ecclesiastical and administrative had by then been confirmed.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2021, 04:39:40 PM »

The strongest evidence is that crucifixion was a punishment for rebellion against the Roman state. If the Jews had been involved in Jesus' execution then he would have been stoned according to Jewish law.
To the contrary - even the English did not allow their ecclesiastical courts to sentence people to death. The back and forth of court authority is itself, at least in part, probably accurate. The Roman priesthood had been merged with the Imperial authority only with Augustine, and it is unlikely that any consistent difference between ecclesiastical and administrative had by then been confirmed.

The point is that crucifixion was not a punishment for blasphemy or anything the Jewish priesthood would have cared about convicting Jesus for.
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Samof94
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2021, 08:58:13 PM »

A non divine Jesus existing I think is certainly possible.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2021, 09:02:43 PM »

If you are hellbent on using Josephus to prove Jesus's existence,  the smart play is to sidestep the Testimonium Flaviam entirely and instead invoke the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9:

Quote
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:



Given Josephus' career, it's quite likely he was literally there when James was executed, too. If not, he definitely would've known people present.

It also fits in that James, as the head of the Jerusalem Church, would have a significantly bigger following 30 years after Jesus' execution than Jesus himself ever had while living, and his execution would've been really noteworthy as the head of a very troublesome faction.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2021, 12:40:22 PM »

The point is that crucifixion was not a punishment for blasphemy or anything the Jewish priesthood would have cared about convicting Jesus for.
The point I was making was that the Gospels make clear that Roman law prohibited the Jewish priesthood from putting anyone to death. Furthermore, some commentaries have indicated that both the trials before the Sanhedrin and Pilate were outside Jewish and Roman law - an important point to note that under the laws of man, the crucifixion was not justified.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2021, 03:48:58 PM »

The point is that crucifixion was not a punishment for blasphemy or anything the Jewish priesthood would have cared about convicting Jesus for.
The point I was making was that the Gospels make clear that Roman law prohibited the Jewish priesthood from putting anyone to death. Furthermore, some commentaries have indicated that both the trials before the Sanhedrin and Pilate were outside Jewish and Roman law - an important point to note that under the laws of man, the crucifixion was not justified.

Of course, a non-Roman citizen had no right to appeal or anything under Roman law.

It's why St. Paul, who WAS a Roman citizen, had such a complicated execution story and survived way longer than he otherwise would have.

(Arrested in Jerusalem in ~57... I want to take my case to the Emperor! ... Finally sent to Rome in ~60... Nero's incredibly busy and Paul gets to spend literal years in Rome doing his thing before Nero gets around to hearing his appeal and having him killed in ~64)
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2021, 02:29:57 AM »

Of course, a non-Roman citizen had no right to appeal or anything under Roman law.

It's why St. Paul, who WAS a Roman citizen, had such a complicated execution story and survived way longer than he otherwise would have.

(Arrested in Jerusalem in ~57... I want to take my case to the Emperor! ... Finally sent to Rome in ~60... Nero's incredibly busy and Paul gets to spend literal years in Rome doing his thing before Nero gets around to hearing his appeal and having him killed in ~64)
Indeed, there was no possible appeal for Jesus outside of Pilate and the Sanhedrin, whose own condemnations of him violated their own law.

I quite like Lewis’s metaphysical take here:
“Though the Witch knew the Deep Magic, there is a magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of Time. But if she could have looked a little further back, into the stillness and the darkness before Time dawned, she would have read there a different incantation. She would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards.”
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2021, 03:17:39 AM »
« Edited: March 13, 2021, 03:26:11 AM by Statilius the Epicurean »

The point is that crucifixion was not a punishment for blasphemy or anything the Jewish priesthood would have cared about convicting Jesus for.
The point I was making was that the Gospels make clear that Roman law prohibited the Jewish priesthood from putting anyone to death. Furthermore, some commentaries have indicated that both the trials before the Sanhedrin and Pilate were outside Jewish and Roman law - an important point to note that under the laws of man, the crucifixion was not justified.

In the Gospels there are multiple differing accounts of the trial of Jesus. Later commentators are doing just that, commentating without any special historical information. I'm not sure the relevance of any of this anyway. Crucifixion was a punishment specifically for insurrectionists against the Roman state, not anything Jews would have cared about. Roman governors weren't crucifying people for intra-Jewish religious disputes.

The point is that crucifixion was not a punishment for blasphemy or anything the Jewish priesthood would have cared about convicting Jesus for.
The point I was making was that the Gospels make clear that Roman law prohibited the Jewish priesthood from putting anyone to death. Furthermore, some commentaries have indicated that both the trials before the Sanhedrin and Pilate were outside Jewish and Roman law - an important point to note that under the laws of man, the crucifixion was not justified.

Of course, a non-Roman citizen had no right to appeal or anything under Roman law.

It's why St. Paul, who WAS a Roman citizen, had such a complicated execution story and survived way longer than he otherwise would have.

(Arrested in Jerusalem in ~57... I want to take my case to the Emperor! ... Finally sent to Rome in ~60... Nero's incredibly busy and Paul gets to spend literal years in Rome doing his thing before Nero gets around to hearing his appeal and having him killed in ~64)

We don't know if Paul was a Roman citizen as he never mentions it in his letters. In Acts it serves as a plot device to get Paul to Rome and another way to highlight one of the author's favourite themes, that Rome = good Jews = bad.
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