oh louisiana.

[Smash255]

Disgusting

[Smash255]

why would you want people to bring their guns on a college campus?

senator realisticidealist:  false.  has it occurred to you that most people don't particularly care about carrying a gun?  what this does is make it easier for people to start shooting each other.  it's ridiculous to say that someone would bring a gun on campus to defend themselves.  it's far more likely that potential shooters will do that instead.

If there were some way to make sure that no one ever brought a gun onto campus, that would be the best option. If there were some way to make sure that no one had a gun in the whole world, that would be the best option. But those are not options.

I'm a junior in college, and I've visited plenty of other college campuses. You don't go through metal detectors to go into campus. You don't have your car searched. You just drive in and park. Classrooms are not locked, and don't have security. Anyone who wants to can drive onto campus with a gun or several in your backpack (the guy who shot up the civics center near my school had 2 guns) and just start shooting anywhere you want.

Even my university, which is a State University in NY doesn't have security. Our campus security is state police, if you get security called on you for any reason, you're immediately dealing with NY state police. But still, despite the fact that state troopers drive around campus all the time, there's nothing stopping you from putting a gun in your backpack and walking into a class, dorm, dining hall or any other building.

So if the ease of carrying a gun to class is already the same as carrying a textbook, then why not at least legitimize the practice so that people can defend themselves when someone wants to shoot up a class?

And what happens when someone who gets insulted or pissed off decides to pull out a gun instead of fists?

[Smash255]

the reason they have strict gun controls is because of the high crime rates. 

There is no gun control on college campuses. Anyone can bring a gun anywhere on campus. There are no metal detectors, no security checkpoints, no bag searches, nothing.

he said that places with strict gun control have higher crime rates and was using that as an argument to why gun control is ineffective.  that's what i was responding too.  he wasn't talking specifically about college campuses.

I live on Long Island where we have very strict gun control, we have among the lowest % of gun owners in the entire country and one of the lowest crime rates as well.

[Smash255]

well true, but don't you think that the person with violent tendencies would be more likely to carry a gun than the poor victim of the case you describe (or a rape victim perhaps)?

Yes but that is already the status quo.

The person with violent tendencies owned a gun. In his facebook account, there were pictures of him holding a shotgun, whiskey and smoking a cigar, aiming the gun angrily at the camera. I don't know if he had anything like a handgun, but he owned weapons already.

The point is that in this country it is very easy to buy a gun, legally or illegally. Many violent people do own guns, and I know many people buy guns legally and then use them illegally. You have to recognize that the status quo allows people with violent/criminal intentions to purchase and carry guns anywhere. If they're caught there is legal ramifications, but people who are violent like that probably don't care. The point of liberalizing gun laws is to allow law-abiding, sane people to at least be able to compete with the maniacs who already have free access to firearms and don't have discretion.

Which is why we need gun registration, full and complete background checks, no loopholes at gun shows.  None of these things will prevent a law abiding citizen from being able to legally obtain guns, but it does make it more difficult for guns to end up in the wrong hands.

[Smash255]

I live on Long Island where we have very strict gun control, we have among the lowest % of gun owners in the entire country and one of the lowest crime rates as well.

You live on Long Island where it's very rich, and rich people don't have the same motivations as poor people to commit violent crimes. Just the fact of being in Nassau or Suffolk doesn't mean you're safe though, there are plenty of dangerous poor neighborhoods where people do got shot. In places where everyone's mommy and daddy aren't quite so rich, people actually have to worry about the real-world problem of defending yourself.

Even in the poorer areas of Long Island (Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch) while it does have some crime it is still quite a bit below what other areas with similar poverty rates have.  Fact of the matter is gun registration and stringent background checks won't keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

[Smash255]

Even in the poorer areas of Long Island (Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch) while it does have some crime it is still quite a bit below what other areas with similar poverty rates have.  Fact of the matter is gun registration and stringent background checks won't keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

Registration and background checks are fine, and besides the point of whether people should be allowed to carry guns legally on campus. The discussion here is whether law abiding citizens, who jump through the proper hoops, should be allowed to defend themselves on campuses.

Which I don't think should be the case, but for the most part the areas these laws are passed are in states with very loose gun laws where any nut job can go to a gun show and legally purchase a gun with little or no checks.

[Smash255]

Even in the poorer areas of Long Island (Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch) while it does have some crime it is still quite a bit below what other areas with similar poverty rates have.  Fact of the matter is gun registration and stringent background checks won't keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

Registration and background checks are fine, and besides the point of whether people should be allowed to carry guns legally on campus. The discussion here is whether law abiding citizens, who jump through the proper hoops, should be allowed to defend themselves on campuses.

Which I don't think should be the case, but for the most part the areas these laws are passed are in states with very loose gun laws where any nut job can go to a gun show and legally purchase a gun with little or no checks.

Shooters find a way to get guns, anyway. Notice VT and Columbine did not allow guns. That did not help.

In the VT case the kid who had previous mental issues was able to legally by the gun due to the lax gun laws.

[Smash255]

Zarn, you and Smash seem to be talking around each other. We're talking about letting people bring guns to campus with the idea that it would stop school shootings, since anyone can buy a gun/bring it to campus as they want. He's just arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to buy guns as freely in the first place, hoping that putting restrictions on the legal supply would preempt school shootings.

Unfortunately Smash, I think that people who want to shoot up a school wouldn't be stopped by restrictions on sales either. If your intent is to kill people then kill yourself, you don't care about getting guns legally or illegally.

Granted, the VT shooter got his gun legally. Why wouldn't he? It's easy enough, and his intention was suicidal, so he didn't care about being linked to the shootings after.

But if guns were illegal, or he couldn't buy one because of his mental instabilities, do you think he would've just said "aww, shucks" and gone to class peacefully? Just like alcohol during prohibition, and drugs now, guns can be bought illegally. And if they're made harder to buy legally, that will just mean demand gets shifted over to the black market. It'd probably reduce the number of normal people with no murderous intentions who own guns, but would it stop people who really wanted it from getting them?

It still makes it much easier for them to get the hands on the gun in the 1st place.  I don't see any  reason to allow gus on campus, simply to many things can go wrong.  However, if you are going to allow it you need to have restrictions to prevent some nutcase such as the kid involved in the VT tragedy from legally purchasing guns.  Very little of these restrictions exist in the areas that are allowing them  on campus.

[Smash255]

Which I don't think should be the case, but for the most part the areas these laws are passed are in states with very loose gun laws where any nut job can go to a gun show and legally purchase a gun with little or no checks.

Odd that these places have low gun crime too heh?

Louisiana??