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  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Gustaf, Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  Should the Convention go on?
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Author Topic: Should the Convention go on?  (Read 7867 times)
Purple State
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« on: June 22, 2009, 11:36:41 pm »

Go for it.
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Јas
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 03:49:23 am »

As a non-delegate, let me just say that given the time and effort that went into creating this body (from the Senate, the Region's and from Dave), and given the amount of time and effort that has been spent within this body itself debating Constitutional issues, it would be a great shame if it all amounted to nothing.

This Convention was put together to do a job and I do not believe it should shirk from the task of trying to improve our Constitutional foundations - unless this Convention has concluded that our current Constitution is perfect?

Should this Convention dismiss itself without producing anything for the consideration of the people, it will stand as one of Atlasia's greatest follies.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2009, 05:12:32 am »
« Edited: June 23, 2009, 05:14:40 am by Senator Marokai Blue »

This constitutional convention should most definitely go on, but we need to drastically re-think our approach. We need to come up with a solution that either changes regions drastically (which won't pass) or keeps within the current framework (I'm looking at you, Purple State Wink), but polishing it up and making minor certain additions or reforms where needed, amounting to a new and improved, but still similar, solution.

I think my proposal does that, though, if I may take a moment to pitch my own proposal for a moment. It reduces regions a bit, expands the Senate a bit, rewrites the constitution (basically a proofread) so it's easier to follow after years of additions and changes, and makes minor changes here and there (to game moderators, elections etc) all the while not radically or even substantially changing our system of government.

One thing I have no intention of going along with though, is unnecessary change. If there's no rationale for something at all (like a bicameral legislature) or there are things that are quite obviously not going to pass the referendum (abolishing regions entirely) then I won't support it.

Bottom-line, we should PM delegates, root out the inactive ones, get some new people in here, get one solution on the tracks that keeps the overall system of government we have going now, but making some alterations where necessary, and give this one last push for success.

We need a SIMPLE and PRAGMATIC solution, not one that is doomed from the beginning, or bogged down by unneeded changes or unnecessary complications.
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Hash
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2009, 08:29:03 am »

We all know the status-quo or something extremely close to status-quo would prevail. I have little hope for the parliamentary bicameralism project I tried to make work, as it's very likely to get killed quickly by the force of status-quo.
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Purple State
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 12:14:37 pm »

I am beginning to agree with everything Marokai and Hash just said. And I agree, Jas, that it would be a shame. So what are we thinking? I am willing to close down the current proposals and open up a "Fix It" thread to offer proposals to polish up the current Constitution. We can go from there and come up with a set of amendments to pass through the Convention and then a referendum.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 02:22:02 pm »

We all know the status-quo or something extremely close to status-quo would prevail. I have little hope for the parliamentary bicameralism project I tried to make work, as it's very likely to get killed quickly by the force of status-quo.

In a perfect environment, I would support something new, but it would never pass, so I just don't want to waste the time. Sad
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Vepres
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 02:28:07 pm »

In a perfect environment, I would support something new, but it would never pass, so I just don't want to waste the time. Sad

Look, the only new things this convention thought of were European-style democracies, which are not only not as fun, but would kill the game, as most players are Americans.

You can change a lot without changing the basic framework. It would look very different, but still have a similar structure. Personally, I feel regional reform is the issue at hand, as we have a strong party system and the federal government is working well.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 04:03:48 pm »

In a perfect environment, I would support something new, but it would never pass, so I just don't want to waste the time. Sad

Look, the only new things this convention thought of were European-style democracies, which are not only not as fun, but would kill the game, as most players are Americans.

You can change a lot without changing the basic framework. It would look very different, but still have a similar structure. Personally, I feel regional reform is the issue at hand, as we have a strong party system and the federal government is working well.

I generally agree with what Vepres and surprisingly Marokai have said. The only thing I don't like about Marokai's proposal is reducing the number of regions. I like the idea of rewriting the consitution especially considering that the SoFA has appearently been misreading the voting requirements(Days before election needed for vote to count), if he has been misreading it or misinterpreting it then I think its likely there are many other such intances scattered throughout the consitution.

I think it would be a mistake for this convention to end in failure. I would rather it produce something, even if it be as misguided as a European Style system(Atleast that would give me an opportunity to launch a nationwide speaking tour against it Grin ).
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 04:26:07 pm »
« Edited: June 23, 2009, 04:28:19 pm by Corsica Nazione »

If we don't get fun parliamentarianism, I hope we can atleast abolish regions or at worst reduce them.

This convention won't pass anything except status-quo, live with it and accept it. I'm obviously not happy at all about this, however, I realize that the force of status-quo have and will prevail, making any last-ditch attempts to make my proposal and universalism work entirely futile if not slightly stupid. In that regards, this convention can be judged to be a failure, sadly.
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Vepres
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 10:49:42 am »

If we don't get fun parliamentarianism, I hope we can atleast abolish regions or at worst reduce them.

This convention won't pass anything except status-quo, live with it and accept it. I'm obviously not happy at all about this, however, I realize that the force of status-quo have and will prevail, making any last-ditch attempts to make my proposal and universalism work entirely futile if not slightly stupid. In that regards, this convention can be judged to be a failure, sadly.

Parliamentarianism was tried with Antilla, and it failed, no use in trying again.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 11:01:38 am »

If we don't get fun parliamentarianism, I hope we can atleast abolish regions or at worst reduce them.

This convention won't pass anything except status-quo, live with it and accept it. I'm obviously not happy at all about this, however, I realize that the force of status-quo have and will prevail, making any last-ditch attempts to make my proposal and universalism work entirely futile if not slightly stupid. In that regards, this convention can be judged to be a failure, sadly.

Parliamentarianism was tried with Antilla, and it failed, no use in trying again.

Antillia didn't fail because of parliamentarianism, Antillia failed because people were too lazy to write a constitution.  A parliament never even formed.
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Vepres
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 11:05:11 am »

If we don't get fun parliamentarianism, I hope we can atleast abolish regions or at worst reduce them.

This convention won't pass anything except status-quo, live with it and accept it. I'm obviously not happy at all about this, however, I realize that the force of status-quo have and will prevail, making any last-ditch attempts to make my proposal and universalism work entirely futile if not slightly stupid. In that regards, this convention can be judged to be a failure, sadly.

Parliamentarianism was tried with Antilla, and it failed, no use in trying again.

Antillia didn't fail because of parliamentarianism, Antillia failed because people were too lazy to write a constitution.  A parliament never even formed.

Even more similarities between the convention and Antilla. Hmmm... Antilla failed, so logically, hmmm... Wink
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2009, 11:11:33 am »

If we don't get fun parliamentarianism, I hope we can atleast abolish regions or at worst reduce them.

This convention won't pass anything except status-quo, live with it and accept it. I'm obviously not happy at all about this, however, I realize that the force of status-quo have and will prevail, making any last-ditch attempts to make my proposal and universalism work entirely futile if not slightly stupid. In that regards, this convention can be judged to be a failure, sadly.

Parliamentarianism was tried with Antilla, and it failed, no use in trying again.

Antillia didn't fail because of parliamentarianism, Antillia failed because people were too lazy to write a constitution.  A parliament never even formed.

Even more similarities between the convention and Antilla. Hmmm... Antilla failed, so logically, hmmm... Wink

I would say that the comparison would be between Atlasia and Antillia, and so Atlasia is now doomed to fail, but okay Tongue
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Vepres
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 02:26:13 pm »

If we don't get fun parliamentarianism, I hope we can atleast abolish regions or at worst reduce them.

This convention won't pass anything except status-quo, live with it and accept it. I'm obviously not happy at all about this, however, I realize that the force of status-quo have and will prevail, making any last-ditch attempts to make my proposal and universalism work entirely futile if not slightly stupid. In that regards, this convention can be judged to be a failure, sadly.

Parliamentarianism was tried with Antilla, and it failed, no use in trying again.

Antillia didn't fail because of parliamentarianism, Antillia failed because people were too lazy to write a constitution.  A parliament never even formed.

Even more similarities between the convention and Antilla. Hmmm... Antilla failed, so logically, hmmm... Wink

I would say that the comparison would be between Atlasia and Antillia, and so Atlasia is now doomed to fail, but okay Tongue

All I'm saying is Parliament = Failure.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 02:28:39 pm »

No! I got into this convention because I'm a big candidate of "no change" or at least all these changes like a lower house or a parliment. End the nonsense! Smiley
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RIP Robert H Bork
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 02:47:15 pm »

No.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2009, 03:36:44 pm »


I appreciated your educated opinion. We'd do well to listen to your ilk.
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Fritz
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2009, 09:14:01 pm »

It seems the sentiments I expressed in my "No change!" thread are now shared by the Convention delegates.  I was very recently returned here when I posted that thread, and I did not like what I saw going on here.  My objections were primarily towards the ideas of universalism, and parliamentarianism.  It is now quite clear that neither of these will pass.

The convention should go on, it should accomplish something.  The goals of the convention just need to be changed.  We don't need an entirely new constitution, just some tweaks.
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Hash
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2009, 09:17:20 pm »

In other words, fake reform.
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Purple State
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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2009, 09:26:34 pm »


Depends what the tweaks are.
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Vepres
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2009, 09:47:06 pm »


You can have reform without totally changing the system.
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