2009 Atlasian Economic Relief and Recovery Bill (Law'd)

[Fritz]

Aye.

I withdraw my amendment, in hopes that Franzl or Yankee come up with a compromise.

[tmthforu94]

Aye

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Aye

[Hash]

aye

[MasterJedi]

With 6 Ayes, 0 Nays and 0 Abstentions this amendment has passed.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I proposed this amendment with the inclusion of the nationalization of the auto industry at the behest of President Lief who told me to introduce it with my aims high but to compromise if necessary. I would much prefer a middle ground rather than simply stripping something out and canceling out half of the stimulus. We may as well just vote the entire stimulus down if we're not prepared to do everything necessary.

What sort of middle ground proposals, specifically, would anyone here support for aiding the auto-industry? (And forgive me, but I didn't read NCY's post on the previous page entirely. I read about half of it and got distracted )

You weren't the only one to not read my posts so don't feel bad. . Am I the only one on this forum that reads every post in a thread before posting?

My Auto Plan
1. Reduce the Corporate Tax rate on them to a temporary rate of 15% and allow them to deduct all loses from there there taxes.
2. Invest heavilly in technology
3. Provide for an emergency fund should they face eminent liquidation either in the form of Gov't backed private loans, or direct aid.
4. Consolidate. Consolidate. Consolidate.
5. Allow them to go through a natural bankruptcy to clear the execs and the top managemant, and force all parties to agree to a restructuring,
6. Respect private property by letting the Bondholders to get a fair settlement.

and also
7. Passing a Health Care reform to lift some of the burdens off the care companies and Atlasian companies in general by reducing overall costs.

I would like to see the Overal Corporate Tax rate dropped, flattened, and with exemptions or deductions made for certain struggling sectors. However the current composition of the Senate doesn't favor that so I will instead compromis in favor of line 1 up above.

[Franzl]

How would these investments in technology look, exactly? Would they be provided in the form of direct government subsidies?

My other question is about the emergency loans or direct aid...would the fact that they certainly exist prevent car makers from truly enacting appropriate reforms?

Obviously there would be terrible short term effects if any main automaker were to be liquidated, and that is something that nobody would like to see happen.


The temporary corporate tax reductions are a very good idea...Question: Would they apply only to the Big 3 Atlasian automakers, or to every automaker?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

How would these investments in technology look, exactly? Would they be provided in the form of direct government subsidies?

My other question is about the emergency loans or direct aid...would the fact that they certainly exist prevent car makers from truly enacting appropriate reforms?

Obviously there would be terrible short term effects if any main automaker were to be liquidated, and that is something that nobody would like to see happen.


The temporary corporate tax reductions are a very good idea...Question: Would they apply only to the Big 3 Atlasian automakers, or to every automaker?

1. The Investment in technology would consist first and foremost with boosting the overall investment in R&D for Energy and Transportation tech. In RL its currently at 4 Billion annually. The wonderful Mitt Romney proposed boasting it to $20 billion a year, I would prefer $25 Billion or more annually. I am not exactly sure how the our R&D program works but I beleive subsidies are a part of it. 

2. We will have to deal with that problem either by something like saying you will only get aid once or something like that. I am open to whatever you think is appropriate to prevent that from happening

3. Again, on the tax deductions, something I hadn't thought about yet but am currently working on that. I would appreciate any suggestions you have on that as well.

I am good at crafting overal strategies, and plans but when it comes down to micro details I am not as good.

[Franzl]

How would these investments in technology look, exactly? Would they be provided in the form of direct government subsidies?

My other question is about the emergency loans or direct aid...would the fact that they certainly exist prevent car makers from truly enacting appropriate reforms?

Obviously there would be terrible short term effects if any main automaker were to be liquidated, and that is something that nobody would like to see happen.


The temporary corporate tax reductions are a very good idea...Question: Would they apply only to the Big 3 Atlasian automakers, or to every automaker?

1. The Investment in technology would consist first and foremost with boosting the overall investment in R&D for Energy and Transportation tech. In RL its currently at 4 Billion annually. The wonderful Mitt Romney proposed boasting it to $20 billion a year, I would prefer $25 Billion or more annually. I am not exactly sure how the our R&D program works but I beleive subsidies are a part of it. 

2. We will have to deal with that problem either by something like saying you will only get aid once or something like that. I am open to whatever you think is appropriate to prevent that from happening

3. Again, on the tax deductions, something I hadn't thought about yet but am currently working on that. I would appreciate any suggestions you have on that as well.

I am good at crafting overal strategies, and plans but when it comes down to micro details I am not as good.

Yeah that's my problem as well....finding exact details and wording for bills

I'll see what I can do. Allowing the emergency funding once and only once is good proposal. I would consider it only fair to provide the corporate tax cuts to the entire industry...it's still a good way to keep Atlasian makers from folding, I think.

Ultimately, of course, the funding for research is the best way of getting the Atlasian car industry competitive again...and that should certainly be our long-term strategy.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

How would these investments in technology look, exactly? Would they be provided in the form of direct government subsidies?

My other question is about the emergency loans or direct aid...would the fact that they certainly exist prevent car makers from truly enacting appropriate reforms?

Obviously there would be terrible short term effects if any main automaker were to be liquidated, and that is something that nobody would like to see happen.


The temporary corporate tax reductions are a very good idea...Question: Would they apply only to the Big 3 Atlasian automakers, or to every automaker?

1. The Investment in technology would consist first and foremost with boosting the overall investment in R&D for Energy and Transportation tech. In RL its currently at 4 Billion annually. The wonderful Mitt Romney proposed boasting it to $20 billion a year, I would prefer $25 Billion or more annually. I am not exactly sure how the our R&D program works but I beleive subsidies are a part of it. 

2. We will have to deal with that problem either by something like saying you will only get aid once or something like that. I am open to whatever you think is appropriate to prevent that from happening

3. Again, on the tax deductions, something I hadn't thought about yet but am currently working on that. I would appreciate any suggestions you have on that as well.

I am good at crafting overal strategies, and plans but when it comes down to micro details I am not as good.

Yeah that's my problem as well....finding exact details and wording for bills

I'll see what I can do. Allowing the emergency funding once and only once is good proposal. I would consider it only fair to provide the corporate tax cuts to the entire industry...it's still a good way to keep Atlasian makers from folding, I think.

Ultimately, of course, the funding for research is the best way of getting the Atlasian car industry competitive again...and that should certainly be our long-term strategy.

Whatever you come up with, as long as it includes all 7 of the things or at least 5 or 6 of the things I outlined above, I will support it.

[Marokai Backbeat]

With 6 Ayes, 0 Nays and 0 Abstentions this amendment has passed.

Jesus, I take a few hours away from the forum..

I proposed this amendment with the inclusion of the nationalization of the auto industry at the behest of President Lief who told me to introduce it with my aims high but to compromise if necessary. I would much prefer a middle ground rather than simply stripping something out and canceling out half of the stimulus. We may as well just vote the entire stimulus down if we're not prepared to do everything necessary.

What sort of middle ground proposals, specifically, would anyone here support for aiding the auto-industry? (And forgive me, but I didn't read NCY's post on the previous page entirely. I read about half of it and got distracted )

You weren't the only one to not read my posts so don't feel bad. . Am I the only one on this forum that reads every post in a thread before posting?

My Auto Plan
1. Reduce the Corporate Tax rate on them to a temporary rate of 15% and allow them to deduct all loses from there there taxes.
2. Invest heavilly in technology
3. Provide for an emergency fund should they face eminent liquidation either in the form of Gov't backed private loans, or direct aid.
4. Consolidate. Consolidate. Consolidate.
5. Allow them to go through a natural bankruptcy to clear the execs and the top managemant, and force all parties to agree to a restructuring,
6. Respect private property by letting the Bondholders to get a fair settlement.

and also
7. Passing a Health Care reform to lift some of the burdens off the care companies and Atlasian companies in general by reducing overall costs.

I would like to see the Overal Corporate Tax rate dropped, flattened, and with exemptions or deductions made for certain struggling sectors. However the current composition of the Senate doesn't favor that so I will instead compromis in favor of line 1 up above.

Your overall plan is decent, though I wish it included more direct aid to the automakers. I'm a bit concerned that cutting the corporate tax rate by more than half for the automakers is too steep of a cut, but if you mandate it only be for two years or something, that's something I could swallow, I suppose.

I think, though, we should all remember that even though the automakers are obviously incompetent and horrifically mismanaged, all automakers are having problems right now (even Asian auto companies are having serious problems because of the recession) and we need to be careful that we don't force them to consolidate and contract their businesses too much, once the recession is over.

However I don't believe bankruptcy and going to be helpful for any of them, especially GM. Bankruptcy could seriously hurt the reputation of the brand and will likely drive workers and customers to foreign owned, and non-unionized, factories and dealerships. I would hope that we could provide funds to them to stave off bankruptcy. It wouldn't take a great deal of money to keep the businesses afloat, especially in comparison to all we're spending on other portions of this bill. At least providing funds to keep GM from bankruptcy, would be nice.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

With 6 Ayes, 0 Nays and 0 Abstentions this amendment has passed.

Jesus, I take a few hours away from the forum..

I proposed this amendment with the inclusion of the nationalization of the auto industry at the behest of President Lief who told me to introduce it with my aims high but to compromise if necessary. I would much prefer a middle ground rather than simply stripping something out and canceling out half of the stimulus. We may as well just vote the entire stimulus down if we're not prepared to do everything necessary.

What sort of middle ground proposals, specifically, would anyone here support for aiding the auto-industry? (And forgive me, but I didn't read NCY's post on the previous page entirely. I read about half of it and got distracted )

You weren't the only one to not read my posts so don't feel bad. . Am I the only one on this forum that reads every post in a thread before posting?

My Auto Plan
1. Reduce the Corporate Tax rate on them to a temporary rate of 15% and allow them to deduct all loses from there there taxes.
2. Invest heavilly in technology
3. Provide for an emergency fund should they face eminent liquidation either in the form of Gov't backed private loans, or direct aid.
4. Consolidate. Consolidate. Consolidate.
5. Allow them to go through a natural bankruptcy to clear the execs and the top managemant, and force all parties to agree to a restructuring,
6. Respect private property by letting the Bondholders to get a fair settlement.

and also
7. Passing a Health Care reform to lift some of the burdens off the care companies and Atlasian companies in general by reducing overall costs.

I would like to see the Overal Corporate Tax rate dropped, flattened, and with exemptions or deductions made for certain struggling sectors. However the current composition of the Senate doesn't favor that so I will instead compromis in favor of line 1 up above.

Your overall plan is decent, though I wish it included more direct aid to the automakers. I'm a bit concerned that cutting the corporate tax rate by more than half for the automakers is too steep of a cut, but if you mandate it only be for two years or something, that's something I could swallow, I suppose.

I think, though, we should all remember that even though the automakers are obviously incompetent and horrifically mismanaged, all automakers are having problems right now (even Asian auto companies are having serious problems because of the recession) and we need to be careful that we don't force them to consolidate and contract their businesses too much, once the recession is over.

However I don't believe bankruptcy and going to be helpful for any of them, especially GM. Bankruptcy could seriously hurt the reputation of the brand and will likely drive workers and customers to foreign owned, and non-unionized, factories and dealerships. I would hope that we could provide funds to them to stave off bankruptcy. It wouldn't take a great deal of money to keep the businesses afloat, especially in comparison to all we're spending on other portions of this bill. At least providing funds to keep GM from bankruptcy, would be nice.

1. then how about 20%. It doesn't have to be exactly 15%. And yes it would be for a set period like 2 years or whatever.

2. I agree that they should not consolidate too much, and as I mentioned a few pages back(which I am sure you didn't read ) we shouldn't have them get rid of all there trucks and SUV's. As Alfred Sloan was asked in Congressional hearing way back in the day, did GM profit on all its lines even in its best years, Sloans' answer was "no". All auto companies are struggling but none of them are in as bad a shape as the Big three in the US.

3. Okay, if you can propose a compromise to hold the execs responsible and get restructuring without bankruptcy or a Gov't takeover, I will glady listen, just like you have fairly listened to all my proposals . Also I will be sure to "read" what you post as well. .  Just be sure that the first line of aid comes in the form of Gov't back Private loans, that way tax payer money only gets involved if they collaspe and we aren't going to let them collapse, are we . If you have no takers on loaning them money even with the Gov't backing then we can provided them with direct aid.

Again you might end up in a debate with Franzl with me watching from the sidelines here if I find your compromise exceptable. He prefers the bankruptcy option.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Simple amendment I was talking about last night with Franzl. Our discussion made me think that more public hospitals certainly wouldn't hurt to consider.

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[Franzl]

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

[afleitch]

Goodness. What on earth is this bill? And why do you make me read through pages and pages of it

[Marokai Backbeat]

Goodness. What on earth is this bill? And why do you make me read through pages and pages of it

Sensible economic stimulus, my friend!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Goodness. What on earth is this bill? And why do you make me read through pages and pages of it

Well you could of course just take peoples word for it as to what it is, but I prefer Senators to know what they are voting on. 


Building Hospitals is a good idea so I support the honerable Senator's amendment. What about the Energy Assisstance, and the infusing cash into the depleted "Crisis" funds? I would inquire to ask the the honerable Senator Marokai, Is that still on the table? 

[Franzl]

Section 3 is amended to read:

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The automakers should go through natural bankruptcy and restructuring processes without excessive government intervention. I also agree with NCYankee that passing meaningful healthcare reform will also provide a great deal of aid to automakers that are struggling with funding union wages and benefits.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Well, obviously I reject the idea that unions should be the punching bag here (and I've explained why here and elsewhere) but as for your amendment, I object to it unless the "emergency funds" are increased to $10 billion as opposed to $5 billion.

[Purple State]

I would like the automakers to have the option of asking for a government assisted takeover and bankruptcy. $5 billion isn't nearly enough for them.

[Franzl]

I'll agree to raising the amount to $10 billion, as proposed by Marokai.....but I'm not open to any form of nationalization.

[Purple State]

I'll agree to raising the amount to $10 billion, as proposed by Marokai.....but I'm not open to any form of nationalization.

If we can't guarantee that a bankruptcy will not result in some surviving company it could further exacerbate the economic situation. The best option is to stay out until bankruptcy is necessary, but if/when they enter into court proceedings the government should step in and ensure the company emerges leaner, more competitive, but intact.

[Franzl]

Perhaps if we get to a point where all Atlasian automakers are likely to be liquated....but to be perfectly honest, I don't think it should be our responsibility to make sure every one survives, that's not how the market is supposed to work. I'm not convinced that it would even be a terrible thing for total supply on the American auto market to go down a bit....

[afleitch]

Perhaps if we get to a point where all Atlasian automakers are likely to be liquated....but to be perfectly honest, I don't think it should be our responsibility to make sure every one survives, that's not how the market is supposed to work. I'm not convinced that it would even be a terrible thing for total supply on the American auto market to go down a bit....

I think that is an appropriate attitude. Car sales reflect consumer choice and attitude to the market more than any other 'one purchase' indicator. I see no reason to support struggling makers who are struggling due to their own complacency. I would be more willing to bail out the company investing in cleaner energy use and dual energy use in cars than those who stubbornly stick to oil and churn out unsustainable 'mini tanks' as family cars.

[MaxQue]

Perhaps if we get to a point where all Atlasian automakers are likely to be liquated....but to be perfectly honest, I don't think it should be our responsibility to make sure every one survives, that's not how the market is supposed to work. I'm not convinced that it would even be a terrible thing for total supply on the American auto market to go down a bit....

I think that is an appropriate attitude. Car sales reflect consumer choice and attitude to the market more than any other 'one purchase' indicator. I see no reason to support struggling makers who are struggling due to their own complacency. I would be more willing to bail out the company investing in cleaner energy use and dual energy use in cars than those who stubbornly stick to oil and churn out unsustainable 'mini tanks' as family cars.

I support helping Atlasian automakers because many workers would lose their jobs if the automaker collaspes. Not because I think than those businesses should survive.