2009 Atlasian Economic Relief and Recovery Bill (Law'd)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I two am perfectly in support of sections 1, 4, and 5. Though I think some additions could be made in the form of loans to existing small business to help them make payroll, especially considering that credit card companies and banks are dropping small business lines of credit. This is increasing the unemployement numbers, in some cases, unnecessarily due to the inability to make payroll. I also would like to see some money maybe 200 Billion in general loans to prospective home buyers, college students, small business owners, and car buyers. The purpose of this would be to alleviate the credit crisis.

Like Franzl, I think that the Buy Atlasian provisions are essentially playing Russian roulette with certain Atlasian workers. I also don't think that the honerable Senator Marokai takes into account the serious impact of the message that would send. Atlasia should take the lead in kicking populist demands for protectionism in the face and send a message to the world that this is not going to be like the 1930's. However this puts shacky and politically unstable Gov't in a position that would make them far more susceptible to the illogical demands of populist anger that allways spreads in these environments.

When it comes to the Auto companies, I agree with Franzl in not taking them over, howeve I disagree that we should let them be liquidated just like that. I think that General Motors can survive this, however the Gov't is going to have to do the things necessary to help them compete and if necessary insure they survive inevitable bankruptcy. However that does not mean a takeover, and it does not mean a bailout. It would have to be a bankruptcy where the hard decisions are finally made, and the company gets its long overdue reorganization. The Gov't should only step in to prevent a liquidation from occuring. Other then that they should focus on helping them compete with the other manufacturers. That includes investing more into Energy and Tranporation R&D, that includes cutting the overall corporate tax rate paid for by removing many exemptions and deductions currently in place. This also has the effect of simplfying the tax the code. They can also help by, ironically, getting some kind of health care reform done the lowers costs in general. 

I do however agree with Franzl that no company should be to big to fail. If that happens it will encourage a wave of corporate incompetance the likes of which we have never seen and make recent examples of corporate incompetance look like the height of responsible management. The threat of failure is what makes companies strive too succeed, they are a businesses first and should not be institutionalised to the point where any mistake our failure on the part of management will be made right by the gov't on the taxpayers dime.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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How many times have I explained this to you? Are you getting dumber? I don't even know if I should bother anymore.

You shouldn't insult my intelligence, Marokai. It will get you know where. Yes it is no where near Smoot-Hawley, but that doesn't matter. What matters is peception, and if foreign countries believe we have taking a protectionist route, no matter how small, the effects could be devastating. You still refuse to admit the possibility that this is counterproductive. Just because "on paper" your Buy Atlasian provisons are small and should have little to no effect in theory, doesn't mean that they won't in practicality.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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How many times have I explained this to you? Are you getting dumber? I don't even know if I should bother anymore.

You shouldn't insult my intelligence, Marokai. It will get you know where. Yes it is no where near Smoot-Hawley, but that doesn't matter. What matters is peception, and if foreign countries believe we have taking a protectionist route, no matter how small, the effects could be devastating. You still refuse to admit the possibility that this is counterproductive. Just because "on paper" your Buy Atlasian provisons are small and should have little to no effect in theory, doesn't mean that they won't in practicality.

How do I respond to someone with their head in the clouds? Any policy we take could be take could be interpreted in 500 different ways and any country could respond with 500 more actions. This can't be helped. What matters is that we stick to the real world and recognize that this is small and drop the retarded "IT'S SMOOT-HAWLEY 2.0!!!!!1" rhetoric.

We had a similar, much more strict provision in the actual stimulus bill. All it did was piss off Canada a little, didn't do much else. (Include an exception for Canada, bam, problems solved.)

Yes lets come down to the real world and not take the risk. May you please cease with those insults I have yet insult you, just criticized your policy making abilities. Please top taking to the next level up.

You have at least admitted that this could be interpreted differently by foreign countries, thats a start.

Don't forget that our disagreement here is over 3 lines in the whole bill, and one section. I am in support of 75% of this bill.  Would you be willing to say include Britain and the EU along with Canada in the exemption? I might be open to compromising a little provided you give a little two.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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How many times have I explained this to you? Are you getting dumber? I don't even know if I should bother anymore.

You shouldn't insult my intelligence, Marokai. It will get you know where. Yes it is no where near Smoot-Hawley, but that doesn't matter. What matters is peception, and if foreign countries believe we have taking a protectionist route, no matter how small, the effects could be devastating. You still refuse to admit the possibility that this is counterproductive. Just because "on paper" your Buy Atlasian provisons are small and should have little to no effect in theory, doesn't mean that they won't in practicality.

How do I respond to someone with their head in the clouds? Any policy we take could be take could be interpreted in 500 different ways and any country could respond with 500 more actions. This can't be helped. What matters is that we stick to the real world and recognize that this is small and drop the retarded "IT'S SMOOT-HAWLEY 2.0!!!!!1" rhetoric.

We had a similar, much more strict provision in the actual stimulus bill. All it did was piss off Canada a little, didn't do much else. (Include an exception for Canada, bam, problems solved.)

Yes lets come down to the real world and not take the risk. May you please cease with those insults I have yet insult you, just criticized your policy making abilities. Please top taking to the next level up.

You have at least admitted that this could be interpreted differently by foreign countries, thats a start.

The problem is you're dreaming up fantasy scenarios with no basis in reality. You argument is "It could be a problem to others, I dunno how, but it could be. It could be like Smoot-Hawley, but I'm not comparing them or anything!"

We did this already in the stimulus bill, and it was a much stricter provision, and it didn't result in the crashing of global trade or a wave of protectionist policies. Your fantasy scenario has yet to realize under harsher conditions in the real world.

Thats because Obama still wants to promote free trade in general. Whereas here in Atlasia our current officials are not as open to free trade, in fact they are the epitome of protectionists. Its easy to get the global community to except one or two provisions when you are the same time still willing to expand free trade, and restore trade talks that collapsed.

Your interpretation of my positions is also very insulting. They are in fact the worst case scenario that could happen in fact if forces in the world push it enough, to reject or ignore this entirely is a very naive and irresponsible act.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Don't forget that our disagreement here is over 3 lines in the whole bill, and one section. I am in support of 75% of this bill.  Would you be willing to say include Britain, Australia and the EU along with Canada in the exemption? I might be open to compromising a little provided you give a little two.
 

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You still have you're head in sand and you're not listening to what I'm saying at all. Your fantasy scenario has not come to pass under more severe real-world circumstances. Your little line about free trade is completely incoherent. I'm open to trade, I believe trade is absolutely essential. And, as I've said, I'm open to an exception with Canada, one of our largest trading partner and a country that shares many businesses with us and treats it's workers fairly.

I'm proposing something open to compromise with Canada, less strict than something that was actually proposed in the United States, and yet you're still claiming economic armageddon or a great trade war. It's nonsensical.

Don't forget that our disagreement here is over 3 lines in the whole bill, and one section. I am in support of 75% of this bill.  Would you be willing to say include Britain, Australia and the EU along with Canada in the exemption? I might be open to compromising a little provided you give a little two.

Canada, Canada only. I'll vote against the final bill if it goes any further than that, another Senator likely will as well.

What is so incoherent about what I said. Its true that Obama was general less protectionist as evidence by his recent actions he still wants to advance free trade in world in general. Under those circumstances countries would be more willing to accept Buy American provisions then if Obama was a raving protectionist opposed to all free trade. Thats the reason this did not come to pass in the real world, and thank god for that. However here in Atlasia from my interpretation our President, the honerable Mr. Lief, is much more protectionist then Obama is. Also our Secretary of External Affairs, the honerable Mr. HappyWarrior, is as well. I think that arguement makes perfect sense. There are differences between Atlasia and RL that you are now ignoring.

I could make similar arguements for exempting Britain and Australia as you can make about Canada in that we have strong economic bonds and also have a long friendly relationship with them stretching back decades.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Obama and Clinton also talked about renegotiating NAFTA during the campaign. Both are now President and Secretary of State. It doesn't matter what people say, it matters what people do. There are protectionists and free-traders in Government, it only matters what we do. No one here is advocating tariff increasing, cutting off all trade agreements, or anything else. Your rationalization is really mind-boggling.

Republicans during the 19th and early 20th century were very protectionist when it came to tariffs and American manufacturing, the economy got worse once they implemented uber-protectionist policies. The connection you make between international reaction and protectionist PEOPLE requires complete suspension of critical thinking and an ignorance of all empirical evidence.

As for Canada, I'm open, and in fact favoring, an exception with them because of our proximity to them and the fact that due to that proximity we often share the same businesses and workers often come and go through each country. Also, Canada has a long history of fair and developed work standards, so I don't fear sharing something like this with a close and developed trading partner on the same continent.

Oh I didn't realise that the British and Australians work and slave in sweatshops without any protections at all.

Your second paragraph actually helps make my point on the dangers of protectionism, and with that kind of history and indeed the difference in the actions of our current leaders(Opposing FTA's) versus the actions of our RL leaders(calling for the resumation of trade talks, working to restart negotiations with certain countries for trade deals), the course you are taking I find to be extremely risky and even dangerous to an already very sick and struggling economy.

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Okay does that mean that you will vote for and the President will sign any trade deals we consider?

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True they did, but both promised a lot of stuff they will never actually come through on and that was one of the first things Obama has backpeddled on since the election.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Since it appears further debate on the Buy ATlasia provisions is pointless I offer the following amendment to the underlying bill, and I request a vote on it regardless as to how it is received by the sponsors.

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[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Internal investment is best, but we need to make sure we are getting the most for our money with this package. Spending far too much just so we can pay an inefficient American contractor doesn't allow the bad companies to die. So, rather than simply repealing the "Buy America" clause, how is this?

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I think this is acceptable.

I am leaning towards accepting this and withdrawing mine, however I shall need to ponder it for a short while. In the mean time, Marokai, would you be willing add a section dealing with the credit crisis or would prefer to do that in a separate bill?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Internal investment is best, but we need to make sure we are getting the most for our money with this package. Spending far too much just so we can pay an inefficient American contractor doesn't allow the bad companies to die. So, rather than simply repealing the "Buy America" clause, how is this?

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I think this is acceptable.

I am leaning towards accepting this and withdrawing mine, however I shall need to ponder it for a short while. In the mean time, Marokai, would you be willing add a section dealing with the credit crisis or would prefer to do that in a separate bill?

Compromise ain't so bad, eh?

I think a separate bill for the credit crisis would be in order.

I do think that this bill is far too small. I would like to see it reach closer to $1 trillion, with the added expenditures all placed in the Infrastructure Investment section.

I too favor a separate bill to deal with the credit issues. And I'm in agreement it needs to be expanded, have anything in mind?

Okay then I won't push that on this. But we need to move soon on the credit crisis or it will cancel out any gains made off this.

I have a suggestion, how about squeezing in a few billion more for light Rail and modernising the power grid. Another one I could suggest but I can guess your reaction is a few billion for replacing or repairing military equiptment.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The Grid alone to connect these wind and solar farms to the major cities on the east and west coast costs about $100 Billion according to the same, T Boone Pickens. So I think public and private partnerships are deffinately in order here. Keep in mind that Wind and Solar power plants need back-up plants largely fueled by Natural Gas, or worse(if you are environmentalist) traditional coal fired plants. So that means we should work to increase the supply of Natural Gas to avoid price increases on that.



As for my amendment on the "Buy Atlasian" provisions  I have decided to..................persue a vote on it. Should it fail I will vote for PS amendment and be done with it.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

As Lt. Governor of the Dirty South, I strongly urge all senators to vote against this bill.

I appreciate your lengthy and detailed imput. I'm terrified of the influence of your office.

So statesmen cannot give their opinions on legislation? Especially when they might be joining your chamber in two months?

I regretably inform the distinguished Lt. Governor that if this trade issue is resolved and the Auto section modified, I will most likely vote FOR this bill.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Aye

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I propose the following amendment to be added to the queue:

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I would probably support this. It brings the total to about one Trillion and deals with some of my pet causes. Though, shouldn't we include language allowing for those Public and Private partnerships. Cause the grid needed to transport the power from the Wind and Solar in the Southwest and Midwest to the Coasts costs about $100 Billion. Plus you have to clear the corridors on which to build them which means buying property from people and tearing down existing structures. So a few billion for that has to come from the Gov't share and I don't believe it counts toward the overall $100 Billion. So you probably have to raise about $55 Billion to $60 Billion from private investment to get the job done on top of the $50 Billion appropriated as part of your amendment. This is according to what T Boone Pickens told a Congressional hearing last July or August on this issue.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

That certainly has my complete support. Clause J, especially, as that will include purchases from Atlasian auto-makers.

Thats why I intially suggested it, but I never thought I could get you guys to go along with it.

I have a suggestion, how about squeezing in a few billion more for light Rail and modernising the power grid. Another one I could suggest but I can guess your reaction is a few billion for replacing or repairing military equiptment.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I propose the following amendment to be added to the queue:

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I would probably support this. It brings the total to about one Trillion and deals with some of my pet causes. Though, shouldn't we include language allowing for those Public and Private partnerships. Cause the grid needed to transport the power from the Wind and Solar in the Southwest and Midwest to the Coasts costs about $100 Billion. Plus you have to clear the corridors on which to build them which means buying property from people and tearing down existing structures. So a few billion for that has to come from the Gov't share and I don't believe it counts toward the overall $100 Billion. So you probably have to raise about $55 Billion to $60 Billion from private investment to get the job done on top of the $50 Billion appropriated as part of your amendment. This is according to what T Boone Pickens told a Congressional hearing last July or August on this issue.

Because of the sensitivity of that proposal, I would rather that be done in a separate amendment, rather than jeopardize the other spending proposals put forth. Feel free to write up what you believe would be appropriate and present it as a separate amendment.

Well I am still a little new at writing complex language for bills. I will do my best.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

That certainly has my complete support. Clause J, especially, as that will include purchases from Atlasian auto-makers.

Thats why I intially suggested it, but I never thought I could get you guys to go along with it.

I have a suggestion, how about squeezing in a few billion more for light Rail and modernising the power grid. Another one I could suggest but I can guess your reaction is a few billion for replacing or repairing military equiptment.

Why would I have a problem with necessary military spending? I included it because you proposed it.

Cause when I proposed it as something that should be in the RL stimulus the response was not exactly enthusiastic.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Let me just point out that we are currently tied at 4-4 because afleitch is away and Fritz is not yet sworn in (can someone explain why that is? is the election not yet closed by the SoFA?). Wouldn't a proxy vote system have helped us a lot in such a situation? Hmm...

Of course you could always change your vote and deal with the problem that way. . If the vote is still going on tommorrow afternoon I will probably change my vote to abstain so we can move forward.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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For consideration following the passage of the honerable Senator Purple State's Amendment.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'd like to applaud the Senate for really debating this bill in depth and offering constructive amendments. I worked with Senators Marokai Blue and MaxQue to write a bill that would provide the foundation for an economy recovery, by giving much needed relief to struggling families and regional/local governments and getting the economy moving again, by employing out of work Atlasians in projects that won't just put them back to work but lead to a stronger economy and a stronger country in the long run.

I fully support Senators Purple State's and North Carolina Yankee's amendments to increase infrastructure spending, and I hope that the Senate adds them to the bill.

I thank the President for his support.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I will not hold up the Senate for week for no reason at all since Afleitch won't be back in time, I change my vote from Aye to Abstain.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

PS' amendments to Section 2 are perfectly fine amendments and I'll vote for them.

The language in clause j amendment must be cleaned up to be concise and make sense. However, it seems to be a good amendment, once again.

Alright I have revised my amendment adding a new clause J as follows.

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If there are any other improvements that you can suggest to the language, they would be most welcomed. If not, then I wish the language of my amendment be replaced with the above text.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Aye ftr on the previous Amendment.

I fully support this current amendment particulary the military spending which will have most  likely the quickest impact of any project in this bill. It will provide numerous benefits to not only the auto companies but also the parts suppliers. I thank the honerable Senator Purple State for including this in his amendment and I thank the honerable Senator Marokai for his support of this measure.


Although we are already pushing this bills price tag to the limit, I was wondering how much has been earmarked for Energy Assisstance in this bill, and how much has Earmarked to replenish "Crisis Funds" through social services. Considering we now in Hurricane Season I think it would be wise to replenish these funds which have almost certainly either been exhausted or are approaching that since many poor and low income families have used it to help pay Electricity bills. Consider also that the months of November, December, January, and February are usually the most expensive months of the Year both for Electricity and Energy costs on families. Seeing as this coincides with the Christmas Shopping season it would be wise to both replenish crisis funds; increase the limit per family since many, like unfortunately my own RL family, have already reached that limit; and increase Energy assisstance to the poor.  The last thing we want is people have there lights turned off on Christmas, but consider also that if people worry about there abililty to pay for Electricity and heat they will likely spend less on Christmas shopping and thus hurt the economy. It is my belief that if a recovery is still possible, this season will have to beat expectations, otherwise we could see a wave of layoffs and bankruptcies early next year from retail, manufacturing, and other industries that might match or exceed what we have already seen. It is something that we should consider.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Some states have HEAP (Home Energy Assistance Program) which assists low-income families with their heating bills, my state included. Perhaps we could make that a national program?

All we got here I think is the federal program LIHEAP. It was small and pretty useless $180. Considering we don't have a heating system and use a combo of Electric heat and Karosene, our Energy costs for the winter probably exceeded $1500, if not more.  Consider that with only one parent able to work and he is on Unemployement which is about $1200 per month. Well you can see where this is going.

Whatever we do it has to be adequately funded and give enough assisstance to really make a difference. As I said there is also the Hurricane season and most of the "Crisis Funds" are exhausted meaning no dough for even those who haven't maxed out since there is none to dish out, those funds definately need to be replenished as well. We should consider rasing the limit for those people like myself who have reached the limit and will thus be screwed when the Winter Electricity bills come in.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Some states have HEAP (Home Energy Assistance Program) which assists low-income families with their heating bills, my state included. Perhaps we could make that a national program?

All we got here I think is the federal program LIHEAP. It was small and pretty useless $180. Considering we don't have a heating system and use a combo of Electric heat and Karosene, our Energy costs for the winter probably exceeded $1500, if not more.  Consider that with only one parent able to work and he is on Unemployement which is about $1200 per month. Well you can see where this is going.

Whatever we do it has to be adequately funded and give enough assisstance to really make a difference. As I said there is also the Hurricane season and most of the "Crisis Funds" are exhausted meaning no dough for even those who haven't maxed out since there is none to dish out, those funds definately need to be replenished as well. We should consider rasing the limit for those people like myself who have reached the limit and will thus be screwed when the Winter Electricity bills come in.

Well, first of all, I feel a little embarrassed that I had no idea this program actually did exist in limited form nation-wide. But you're right and bring up an excellent point, perhaps we should double, even permanently, these energy assistance programs, and scale it down as we hit the income limit. (Which should be expanded.)

Was the $180 a monthly or one-time payment? Do you know any specific numbers? I'll try to get some information out of Ohio's energy assistance program and maybe we can put an improved program together.

One time payment received at the end of the Winter season in Late Jan early Feb.

I think you are confusing two of my proposals, so let me clear this up a little.

1. Expanding The Energy Assisstance.

2. Replenishing Crisis Funds(Available at Social Services)- these can used to help pay anything from electric to paying back rent to keep poor from being evicted(Unfortunately they changed this and here in NC at least they no longer cover back rent). You can see why these funds have been depleted and once they run out, they of course can't provide aid to people.

3. Increase the yearly limit on how much each family can receive, of the those same crisis funds, for those who have already reached it like my family(We still have 5 months left in the year).