Abortion

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The blueprints for the mind are there, it simply hasn't grown. There isn't a period where the mind suddenly is created. THe mind is always growing, and if there is any period where the mind has reached "full growth" potential, it is far after birth. Sure, the zygote doesn't have a mind, but it is growing one, it has the blue prints. Further, the literal meaning of "unconscious" is "without mind". When in a coma, you are literally without mind. Questions when the person had is irrelevent. The point is if the person has the capability of having a mind, and in this case the fetus is fully capable of having a mind.  

[Brambila]

Morality isn't a religious code. It's a natural, human code. I mean, if there were no morality, people would be committing murder, rape, poligamy, incest, et cetera. Obviously, people religious and not believe these things are wrong.  Abortion isn't merely wrong because it's unnatural contreception, it's immoral because it's killing the life of an innocent child, who can feel the pain.  

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Is the fetus any less of a human if it was concieved through rape? If that fetus was born- would you kill it? Of course not. If I had a child concieved through rape, I wouldn't kill it at any age- it is always human. Rape is something absolutely disgusting and horrible, but in reality a woman can live through it- a fetus dies from abortion. As a matter of fact, it's not just the woman who is the victim from rape- so is the fetus. They're in it together.

[Brambila]

I think the problem with the abortion issue, and other social issues, is that the individual tries to impose their own belief over that of the entire community.

I love how you pro-lifers try to shift some blame to the rape victims for the rape. Abortion serves as a good population control, and reduces poverty and wedlock births.

Population control? Reduces poverty? What? Since when have there been too many people? Since when has killing people random reduce poverty?

I love it how pro-choicers make statements up. We never shifted any blame to rape victims. You made that up.

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Firstly, there are no more orphanages in the United States- and I think we should reinstitute them. My grandmother was adopted from an orphanage, and she has very fond memories from it. She actually missed being there after she was adopted. Foster care is where the problems arise. Internationally, children do better in orphanages than foster care.

By your logic, it would also be alright to kill infants that are unwanted. Better to kill them so that other infants can live luxurious lives!

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Why are you bringing Intermediate Algebra into this? Just say what you need to say...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's incorrect. Once again, there is no period when the mind suddenly appears- this is a neurological fact. The mind is never fully grown, it's always growing. Sure, the fetus doesn't have a mind, but that's only because it doesn't need it yet. It will need it later on.  

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a perminent coma. Secondly, if there was, the fetus wouldn't be in that case. The fetus is in a period where the mind is growing, and it will have a mind eventually. But that isn't the only defining part of life. Personhood is the defining part of life, and the fetus is it's own person- it grows in a distinct way, has a distinct presence, (usually) a distinct DNA, and is distinct from the mother's body. The fetus is it's own human being. Simply because it doesn't know it's going to die or can't feel it's pain in early fetal stages doesn't strip it from humanity. It's still a human being and should be protected by law. It has it's own future. It's not sperm or egg; it's its own, unique, being.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Just like it is not present during a coma. So kill all people in comas.  

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Besides the fact that you situation is not only extremely hypothetical but nonexistent, let's go with it. If that was the case, abortion would be fine for several reasons. A) it threatens the life of the mother. B) there is certainty that the fetus will not live. C) The fetus doesn't have a brain, so it would be dead anyway. Actually, it would never even make it past four weeks into fetal stages.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If your situation were reality, abortion would be fine at that stage. Further, abortion after the fetus was born would be fine. But the person would be dead far before being at a later term. It would be dead at 4 weeks into its fetal stage. This may come as a shock to you... but people cannot live on their own without a brain! You are officially dead if you have no brianwaves!

The problem with partial-birth abortion is that the fetus feels the same pain that an infant feels. It feels the same pain that you and I feel. It is fully aware.Imagine being stabbed in the back of the head with a knife- not fun. Partial-Birth abortion is an absolutely savage procedure.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So what? It's long and painful for parents to kill their teenage daughters... does that make it right? Of course not.

I've got a solution to this difficult decision- how about no decision at all? Arn't I smart or what?

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

With anecephaly and hydrocephalus the child has a portion of the brain. You said without a brain:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You need a brain for your body to work. They can't work on their own for very long.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So why don't we kill their children after they are born, when they are infants? We're not forcing women to do anything. If they make the mistake to try to kill their child, they'll pay for the consequences.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't solely oppose abortion because the fetus after about 3-4 months can feel pain. Abortion is the killing of an innocent human being. It's not the fetus' fault he or she was born, it's the mother and father's fault usually. Ergo, I would not support abortion in any cases, except when the mother's life is threatened, and only up till the fetus can feel pain.

[Brambila]

I don't think an unborn baby has any rights, and is under the complete control of the mother. I think a doctor can make a safety decision that the mother must follow, as in the case in Utah.

Mande?

[Brambila]

Congradulations! What did you name him? How much did he weigh?

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What is liberty? I mean, everyone has choices... but are there not limits to choices? We can't steal. I can't rape. I can't murder my child. Abortion is the murder of an innocent human being.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Once again, everyone has limits to choices. You're not winning any argument by saying I'm restricting a woman's choice. I am. I don't doubt that. Her choice is to kill her child. There's no way that's going to be legal.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Do you have any evidence that children put up for adoption would go to miserable homes or that women suffer from giving birth? Either way, it's irrelivent. That doesn't justify murder. Do you think it's just for abortion to go as far as murdering newborns?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You can't justify murder by "it happens". Murder happens too. That doesn't mean it's justified.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You have no idea how angry somebody is, and the emotions people go through when they murder somebody. How dare you judge them and tell them what they're doing is wrong? It's their choice! They thought it was right, so that makes it right!

[Brambila]

Since 1973, an average of 1.3 million abortions are done annually. three to four thousand are done daily.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It's not a religious or moral view. It's murder. You've ignored that fact. Abortion is the murder of a human being. Do you realize that?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Partial Birth Abortion ban has been passed, no federal support for abortion clinics... a lot has been passed. Bush has taken little steps, but Kerry will do more harm. I'd rather vote for somebody who has a chance of making things better than somebody who will probably make things worse.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Slavery was also legal, my friend. That doesn't mean it's right.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Explain to me how they are emotional- they're not. I'm simply stating facts. Abortion is the killing of an innocent human being. A person. Therefore, abortion is wrong.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm glad. But tell me, why do you disagree that the fetus isn't murder? Do you not think the fetus is a human being?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The most recent poll, done by CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP, states that 26% of Americans want abortion always legal, 17% want abortion always illegal, and 55% of americans want abortion illegal in cases of rape, incest, or threat to the mother's life. Meaning, 72% of Americans want abortion illegal in 95% of the cases it's done. No, it's incorrect in saying that 60% of Americans want abortion completely legal. You probably read NBC/Wall Street Poll, which was extremely biased, or asked different questions.

[Brambila]

ElCid did get the facts wrong, but it was extremely peurile and inappropriate for ofthisnation to make comments like that. You lose prestige when you insult like a child.

Now, why don't you answer my post?

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So, does that make it right to kill people in comas, or infants living off of life support? Come on, this logic doesn't work...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Once again, this is an American law. Slavery was also legal in the United States. The government ruled that slaves were 2/3 human. Did that make it just? No. In China, people celebrated "conception days" instead of "birth days". Does that mean in China the fetus is human, but in America they arn't? huh?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No it is a fact. The fetus is biologically a human being. It is a homo saepians. It is alive. It is a person. It has it's own DNA. Come on, biogenesis! Humans only make humans! If it's not a human being, what is it?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Tell me; if the fetus isn't a human being, what is it?

The government is not always correct. There have been many corrupt governments.

[Brambila]

No, it is a fact that the fetus is a human being. Even Planned Parenthood believes that the fetus is a human being.

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Read the CNN/GALLUP/USA TODAY Poll... the Wall Street Journal report was extremely biased asking echy questions that are irrelivent, so ignore that one. Gallup is also more prestigious, and CNN is liberal.

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

CTguy, don't act like an ignorant fool, I know you're not one. "Sometimes legal" doesn't mean that they want abortion completely legal. It means they want abortion legal in the rare cases such as rape, incest, et cetera.

A previous poll done by CNN/TIME defined "sometimes" (CNN was the one who came up with the questions). Their definition of "sometimes" was,

"Which of these positions best represents your views about abortion? A woman should be able to get an abortion if she decides she wants one no matter what the reason. Abortion should only be legal in certain circumstances, such as when a woman's health is endangered or when the pregnancy results from rape or incest. Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances."

In that poll, done early 2003, the results were 39% wanted it always legal, and 57% wanted it only sometimes or never legal. You're incorrect in saying that most Americans want Abortion "completely legal".

Further, 35% of Americans (according to the CNN/TIME poll) favor Abortion in cases where the parents can't afford a child, while 61% are against it. 55%-88% of Americans support Abortion in cases where the mother's life is threatened, the fetus may or does have physical/mental problems, the fetus was concived through rape, or by incest. Those cases make up 5% of all abortions done. 95% of abortions are done when the fetus was concieved perfectly, has no problems, and could easily be adopted.

But it is irrelivent if Americans want it legal or not. Most Americans wanted slavery legal. Most Americans want gay marriage illegal. Does that alone make any of them just? Of course not.

And you have still failed to answer my question or respond to my main point: How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homo saepiens, and the fetus is alive. How is it not a human being?

[Brambila]

This is the last time I'm going to ask you. I'm also placing this at the end of this post. How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homosaepiaens, and is alive. How, then, is it not a human being?!

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Now you're just making things up... wonderful. I said that the poll supported Abortion in 5% of the cases it's done in, not just rape and incest.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So would it also be a personal choice for a mother to kill her newborn? You still havn't answered that.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Abortion is murdering a child. This isn't an opinion, this is FACT. By your logic, I can say that it's only your opinion that a newborn is human, and that it's my opinion that it isn't. Where's the logic in that?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If she gave birth to that child, would she still have a right to kill it? After all, the child was going to ruin her life! So that makes it right to savagely chop off it's limbs!

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Ad hominem. You're completely missing the point. Once again, with your flawed logic, we should also start aborting newborns. It's MY personal choice that they arn't humans, and I should be able to kill them.

How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homosaepiaens, and is alive. How, then, is it not a human being?!

Again,

How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homosaepiaens, and is alive. How, then, is it not a human being?!

And just for luck,

How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homosaepiaens, and is alive. How, then, is it not a human being?!

[Brambila]

I'm just going to copy and paste in the top and bottom of all my posts until you answer the question:


"How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homosaepiaens, and is alive. How, then, is it not a human being?!"

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Sorry, I didn't realize you said this. Somebody had said this before, and my response was: what about people in comas? The word "unconscious" literally means "without mind". People in comas don't have minds, just brainwaves (which alone do not make up a mind). So does this mean that people in recoverable comas can be killed?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, I don't believe that. Women don't murder their fetuses (usually), Abortionists do. So yes, I'm sure at least a good 25 thousand people in the US are murderers.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Such as?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm sorry I didn't reply ten seconds after you responded, but I had something called school. Do you mind me going? Do I have your permission to get an education? Honestly...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You are, once again, ignoring my question. Which is fine. I'll just debate with Beef, he has better points.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Another thing you've ignored: Why do you asume I'm a Christian? Is it because I believe in God? Huh? What logic is that? Further, Christians arn't the only ones "Radical" about the abortion issue. Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and even Hindus are against Abortion. And the current Pope of the Catholic Church condemns capital punishment (and also happens to be against abortion! What a shock!)


"How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homosaepiaens, and is alive. How, then, is it not a human being?!"

[Brambila]

Sorry, I didn't realize you said this. Somebody had said this before, and my response was: what about people in comas? The word "unconscious" literally means "without mind". People in comas don't have minds, just brainwaves (which alone do not make up a mind). So does this mean that people in recoverable comas can be killed?

Actually, here's what I found for the definition of unconscious:

"Lacking awareness and the capacity for sensory perception; not conscious."

But to answer you example, people in comas have been conscious before and they have the possibility of becoming conscious again. Just like people in sleep. Whereas a fetus has never been conscious before. A mind exists when
(1) it is currently conscious, OR
(2) it has been conscious before and is able to be conscious once again.

Second definition from Merriam Webster:

2 a : not possessing mind or consciousness <unconscious matter> b (1) : not marked by conscious thought, sensation, or feeling <unconscious motivation> (2) : of or relating to the unconscious c : having lost consciousness <was unconscious for three days>


From MedTerms Medical Dictionary:

Unconscious: 1) Interruption of awareness of oneself and one's surroundings, lack of the ability to notice or respond to stimuli in the environment. A person may become unconscious due to oxygen deprivation, shock, central nervous system depressants such as alcohol and drugs, or injury. 2) In psychology, that part of thought and emotion that happens outside everyday awareness.

Mind: That which thinks, reasons, perceives, wills, and feels. The mind now appears in no way separate from the brain. In neuroscience, there is no duality between the mind and body. They are one.

Does a person in a (serious) coma think? No. Reason? No. Percieve? No. Will? No. Feels? No.

Sure, the fetus has no past consciousness, but that isn't the point. The point is that he or she will have consciousness, just like a person in a coma may regain consciousness. It doesn't matter if it doesn't have brainwaves or very little- there have been people who have died for minutes, and even the brainwaves have died, and the person was able to regain consciousness, and live a fairly normal life. Have you seen the show Chasing Evil (I think that's what it's called)- his situation is completely possible and does happen.

[Brambila]

NClib, do you have any sources to prove this? What about that forced abortion on a woman in Florida a few months ago?

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Here's your problem, CTguy, I have not made one post supporting the war on Iraq. You have this idea that I'm some sort of radical right-wing fundamentalist Christian who wants nothing better than to go to war with Iraq. Where have I stated that I supported the war? Where have I stated that I'm a Christian? Finally, your point is an ad hominum.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Cowards. Jerks.

[Brambila]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There are two parts to your first point. I feel it is better to answer the second part of your first point, and then answer the first part of your first point. So, firstly, I understand your premis, but there's a flaw. It is unarguable that the fetus is a life- a life does not need a mind. Jellyfish are alive, and they don't have minds. What is the criteria for life? If you open up any biology book, it will usually have the following four requirements: Metabolism, Reproduction (or potential of, since newborns cannot reproduce), Stimulation, and Growth. The fetus metabolises, the fetus stimulates, and the fetus grows, and has the potential to reproduce. Therefore, the fetus is a life. The second question is, "is the fetus a human?" The answer is yes because of it's DNA and biogenesis. Firstly, let's look at it's DNA. Every organism has it's own distinct form of DNA, and every species has it's own type of DNA. The type of DNA the fetus has is not different from a newborns- they have the same DNA, the homo saepien DNA. If that was true, the fetus would mutate at birth. Of course, this is not true.

For your first part of your second point, the fetus does have a potential to percieve and to have a future, just as the person in a coma. The person in a coma percieved, willed, and thought, however, that was past. THe point is what state the human is in at the present time.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Allow me to give you another argument, in context to all the other arguments we've been discussing. There have been medical cases where a fetus- from very early on in the pregnancy, has been in a state of unconsciousness, and even after it is born is still in state of unconsciousness. The child may stay at this state of unconsciousness until death, or will awake. Either way, the results are within days after birth, since birth is such a traumatic event. At any rate, would it be just to kill this newborn child? It is a coma, and has no past thoughts, will, perceptions, et cetera.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

A newborn doesn't know anything of moral value. A middle-to-late term fetus doesn't know anything of moral value. People in temporary vegetative states don't know anything about moral value. Further, infants born in comas do not have subjective preference, as I've already pointed out.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't recall quoting religious leaders... I mean, I stated that the Pope is against the death penalty and abortion, but you were the one who brought the point up.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's incorrect. The Pope's job is always to pray for peace. Pope Pius XII prayed for peace in World War II. He begged the Americans and Germans to have a peaceful resolution. Pope Clement VI asked Francis I of France and Holy Roman Emperor Charles V to make a peaceful resolution in northern Italy. Obviously, the war went on between American and Germany, and between Francis and Charles, and they didn't sin. Catholic don't believe that you must follow the Pope's opinion. Not all the Catholics I know disagree with death penalty- why? Becuase it's not dogmatic. However, abortion is dogmatic.  The Catholic Church --as does several other denominations and religions-- has made it very clear even before Abortion was an issue that human life begins at conception and killing it would be against God's law. I respect the Catholic Church's teaching. However, in the event that the Pope prays for peace and tries to convince leaders to make peaceful resolutions, it's not dogmatic unless the Pope makes an official dogmatic infalliable statement, or bull, on it. The Pope wasn't picking sides like the American anti-war protesters were, the Pope was simply trying to make peace between the quarrelling nations. He even told Saddam Hussein to surrender so that no further bloodshed was made during the air raids of March 19th 2003.

[Brambila]

Okay, whatever. Are you going to answer my question or not?

"How is the fetus not a human being? Biogenesis proves the fetus is a human being, the fetus is a homosaepiaens, and is alive. How, then, is it not a human being?!"

[Brambila]

THANK GOD YOU RESPONDED TO ME. I FEEL SO ACKNOWLEDGED!

[Brambila]

Well, I don't know. Beef is certianly being very mature.