Secret Ballot Procedure Bill

[Sam Spade]

You could just have the SoFA post a thread with all the ballots cast in an anonymous form post-election, that would eliminate both problems.

Though here's the fundamental issue Colin brings up and it's an important one to think about.

If all ballots are secret and no one knows the results, pretty much nothing will happen election weekend except for behind the scenes angling and maybe some speeches.  COuld this make the pre-election time more interesting?  Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.  Just a couple of thoughts.

I think it would make pre-election time more interesting, and I think it would also require the position of SOFA to be separate from that of someone who runs/participates/votes in the fantasy elections.

tactical voting is a bigger problem than keeping it anonymous

You are probably correct on the first angle, Nation.  I tend to disagree on the second, but that's just me.

[MasterJedi]

This has passed.

I'd also like to motion for a vote on this amendment.

Section 9

Corruption, electoral fraud, the changing of votes, and tampering with votes in any way, is hereby criminalized in Atlasia. All members of the said committee who are found guilty of any of these charges will have their voting rights striped for a maximum of one year. Trials will be conducted according to the provisions set in place by the Omnibus Criminal Law Act.

Anyhoo I'm working on Colin's thread idea, should have it up tomorrow.

[Gabu]

With five votes in favor to one against, and with one abstaining, Sam Spade's amendment has passed.

I'd also like to motion for a vote on this amendment.

Section 9

Corruption, electoral fraud, the changing of votes, and tampering with votes in any way, is hereby criminalized in Atlasia. All members of the said committee who are found guilty of any of these charges will have their voting rights striped for a maximum of one year. Trials will be conducted according to the provisions set in place by the Omnibus Criminal Law Act.

That amendment still needs 24 hours of debate time.

[Gabu]

I'd like to propose an amendment on the chain of command list:

Secretary of State
Attorney General
Secretary of Defense
Secretary of the Treasury
District 4 senator
District 1 senator
District 2 senator
District 3 senator
District 5 senator
Southeast Regional senator
Mideast Regional senator
Midwest Regional senator
Northeast Regional senator
Pacific Regional senator

Under the power granted to me in Article 4, Section 2, Clause 4 of the Official Senate Procedural Resolution, I remove this amendment from consideration on the grounds that it is frivolous (and a blatant filibuster attempt).

[Sam Spade]

Let's get a vote on Colin's amendment, Gabu.

[MasterJedi]

Let's get a vote on Colin's amendment, Gabu.

Here, here!

[Colin]

I have one more amendment:

Section 10

Once a secret ballot is submitted to the three electoral comission members the Secretary of Forum Affairs shall, as soon as possible, post this ballot in the official voting booth for that election. This ballot must not include the name of the voter or any definitive markings that could compromise the anonymity of the said secret voter.  

[Joe Republic]

I have one more amendment:

Section 10

Once a secret ballot is submitted to the three electoral comission members the Secretary of Forum Affairs shall, as soon as possible, post this ballot in the official voting booth for that election. This ballot must not include the name of the voter or any definitive markings that could compromise the anonymity of the said secret voter.

This completely undermines the anti-tactical voting intent of the bill.  That is one of the two main reasons for having a secret ballot in the first place.

[King]

I have one more amendment:

Section 10

Once a secret ballot is submitted to the three electoral comission members the Secretary of Forum Affairs shall, as soon as possible, post this ballot in the official voting booth for that election. This ballot must not include the name of the voter or any definitive markings that could compromise the anonymity of the said secret voter.  

So, instead of a registered voter casting a public ballot in the voting booth thread, they send it into 3 guys to look at who then send it to the Secretary of Forum Affairs to post it in the voting booth thread.  How practical!

[Gabu]

I hereby open voting on this amendment:

Section 9

Corruption, electoral fraud, the changing of votes, and tampering with votes in any way, is hereby criminalized in Atlasia. All members of the said committee who are found guilty of any of these charges will have their voting rights striped for a maximum of one year. Trials will be conducted according to the provisions set in place by the Omnibus Criminal Law Act.

All senators in favor, vote "aye"; all against, vote "nay".

---

Aye.

[Colin]

Aye

[Gabu]

I have one more amendment:

Section 10

Once a secret ballot is submitted to the three electoral comission members the Secretary of Forum Affairs shall, as soon as possible, post this ballot in the official voting booth for that election. This ballot must not include the name of the voter or any definitive markings that could compromise the anonymity of the said secret voter.  

Er, I must agree with others that this amendment would kind of defeat the purpose of this entire bill.  The point of secret voting is to make it impossible or at least harder for people to vote tactically, and instead to simply vote for who they want to win.

[Colin]

I have one more amendment:

Section 10

Once a secret ballot is submitted to the three electoral comission members the Secretary of Forum Affairs shall, as soon as possible, post this ballot in the official voting booth for that election. This ballot must not include the name of the voter or any definitive markings that could compromise the anonymity of the said secret voter.  

So, instead of a registered voter casting a public ballot in the voting booth thread, they send it into 3 guys to look at who then send it to the Secretary of Forum Affairs to post it in the voting booth thread.  How practical!

Hey if we have a secret vote I want to at least keep election weekend rather interesting. Otherwise I should just vote and leave on election weekend since their wont be any running totals nor any interesting election topics, debates, or discussion.

[Joe Republic]

Let's not forget that this secret ballot measure is optional.  So for the people who still want to vote publicly, they're more than welcome to do so.  People can still keep running totals of those.

[Colin]

Let's not forget that this secret ballot measure is optional.  So for the people who still want to vote publicly, they're more than welcome to do so.  People can still keep running totals of those.

Yeah but those totals are completely wrong though and wouldn't actually count towards any type of result. We would have no better idea of who won than if we just had an entirely secret ballot election. Atlasia is about fun, first and foremost, I wouldn't be here if I didn't have fun and laugh and did stuff that I liked to do. This bill will take away from the fun of watching the results come in and will stifle the debates, dicussions and commentary that makes elections so great. Without this then elections would be boring and without elections then the whole Atlasian experience, for me, would be alot worse and lot less fun and very uninteresting.

[Gabu]

Let's not forget that this secret ballot measure is optional.  So for the people who still want to vote publicly, they're more than welcome to do so.  People can still keep running totals of those.

Yeah but those totals are completely wrong though and wouldn't actually count towards any type of result. We would have no better idea of who won than if we just had an entirely secret ballot election. Atlasia is about fun, first and foremost, I wouldn't be here if I didn't have fun and laugh and did stuff that I liked to do. This bill will take away from the fun of watching the results come in and will stifle the debates, dicussions and commentary that makes elections so great. Without this then elections would be boring and without elections then the whole Atlasian experience, for me, would be alot worse and lot less fun and very uninteresting.

Why would it make it uninteresting to not know until the last minute who won?  As the public votes come in, everyone could speculate in great detail about what the secret ballots are, try to guess how they will turn out, and everyone will wait with bated breath to see whether or not the trends in the public voting will continue in the secret voting or if someone has captured most of entire secret vote and has run away with the election.

Personally, I think that it would have the potential to make things more exciting, not uninteresting.

[Colin]

Let's not forget that this secret ballot measure is optional.  So for the people who still want to vote publicly, they're more than welcome to do so.  People can still keep running totals of those.

Yeah but those totals are completely wrong though and wouldn't actually count towards any type of result. We would have no better idea of who won than if we just had an entirely secret ballot election. Atlasia is about fun, first and foremost, I wouldn't be here if I didn't have fun and laugh and did stuff that I liked to do. This bill will take away from the fun of watching the results come in and will stifle the debates, dicussions and commentary that makes elections so great. Without this then elections would be boring and without elections then the whole Atlasian experience, for me, would be alot worse and lot less fun and very uninteresting.

Why would it make it uninteresting to not know until the last minute who won?  As the public votes come in, everyone could speculate in great detail about what the secret ballots are, try to guess how they will turn out, and everyone will wait with bated breath to see whether or not the trends in the public voting will continue in the secret voting or if someone has captured most of entire secret vote and has run away with the election.

Personally, I think that it would have the potential to make things more exciting, not uninteresting.

Well maybe for you but not for me. We saw how wrong every pre-election poll was. What's the use of even having running total when you don't know what the results of the secret ballots are. Hell their could be 35 first preference votes for a single candidate in the secret ballots that would make all predicitons absolutely rediculous. As we saw in the last election every vote matters and basically all elections in Atlasia a single vote can decide the outcome of the election.

This whole secret ballot debate comes down to two things. Would you rather vote wait three days and then see almost random election results or do you want to see ever vote as it comes in, be a part of the election process, count the ballots yourself and see the results as they come in. Do you want a three man comission counting votes or 12 indpendent people each counting the votes seperately and not officially and then comparing their results and sharing them with the average people.

I am probably in the minority here and I probably sound like either A) a complete jackass or B) a total buffoon but this is all I can do. I want to keep the electoral system, and especially the public vote, the way it is now. If I come off as harsh I'm sorry since I didn't mean to, all I am trying to do is try and convince people of my line of thought.

[Emsworth]

I have a couple of concerns (not necessarily substantive, but more procedural) about this bill, and I hope that the Senate might address it. I haven't made up my mind about the actual underlying issue, as I feel that both sides have some very good arguments.

Firstly, isn't this a rather major piece of legislation for a lame duck Senate to be passing? I feel that it might carry more legitimacy if it were passed by the new Senate.

Secondly, I recall that the proposal to open diplomatic relations with other micronations received a great deal of attention, including a detailed investigation. As this proposed change is just as significant, if not more so, perhaps the Senate might consider creating a committee to investigate this matter, just as it did with the micronation debate. All Atlasians could perhaps express their views, and the Senate might decide accordingly.

[Joe Republic]

This bill was first introduced over a month ago, and was opened before this Senate became 'lame duck'.  Also, I've tried incredibly hard to get regular Atlasians interested in this bill.  People know about it.  I'm not going to sit back and let this bill get bogged down in bureaucratic committees.

(I sound like Queen Amidala in Star Wars Episode I !!!)

[MasterJedi]

Aye on the amendment.

Yea I'm starting to think that that idea (Colin's recent amendment) isn't a good idea anymore.

[Sam Spade]

Aye on the first Colin amendment (the one up for vote)

[King]

Secret ballots will lead to boring, uneventful elections.  Colin's latest amendment would just make secret ballot a more complicated method of public voting...


I support it just so this bill will be either (a) defeated or (b) repealed after the next election cycle.

[Nation]

This bill was first introduced over a month ago, and was opened before this Senate became 'lame duck'.  Also, I've tried incredibly hard to get regular Atlasians interested in this bill.  People know about it.  I'm not going to sit back and let this bill get bogged down in bureaucratic committees.

(I sound like Queen Amidala in Star Wars Episode I !!!)

I know about it!

[King]

You know, if we do pass this thing, we should also order the creation of a new account that certain members of the government have access to where all the votes are sent to.  Also, to prevent fraud, let's require every person who has sent in a ballot to notify that they have voted in a thread created by the SoFA so when the ballots are counted we can check to see if there where any votes deleted from the count.

EDIT:  Wow.  After reading everything in this thread, I think I just came up with the best idea to prevent voting fraud.

[Speed of Sound]

You know, if we do pass this thing, we should also order the creation of a new account that certain members of the government have access to where all the votes are sent to.  Also, to prevent fraud, let's require every person who has sent in a ballot to notify that they have voted in a thread created by the SoFA so when the ballots are counted we can check to see if there where any votes deleted from the count.

EDIT:  Wow.  After reading everything in this thread, I think I just came up with the best idea to prevent voting fraud.

I'm not a senator, so i dont know if im supposed to post in here, or if my opion matters, but i would like to say that i love this plan.