UK General Discussion Thread: mayy lmao

[Antonio the Sixth]

Britain discovers judicial review! Definitely interesting.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Honestly, it would do Labour a lot of good to have a stronger eurosceptic wing. I say this as someone who's about as europhile as you get these days.

[Antonio the Sixth]

You know I'm about as pro-EU as a left-winger could possibly be these days, but all those Labour MPs voting against article 50 are pathetic.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is the idea that the representatives of the people should abide by the decisions of the majority really that weird?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Once the Pigf**ker decided - in a shameless exercise of the most cynical electoral pandering - to call a referendum and didn't even bother to run a sincere, principled campaign explaining why remaining in the EU was the best choice and people voted exactly as you'd expect them to in such context, there is no way things can end well. Now, yes, respecting the people's will means going down a disastrous road, but what's the alternative exactly? Pretend nothing happened? Tell people their votes were just for sh*ts and giggles, but now the adults are back in charge? Do you realize that doing that means proving all the UKIP and assorted demagogues right? Just like the reaction of smug enlightened liberals like you had to Hillary's defeat reinforces all the dynamics that led to it. Just like, if Macron somehow wins, his presidency will lead more and more people into the arms of the FN.

Yes, Brexit is going to suck. I'll admit that, if I were British, I might even be one of those that tries to prevent it. But taking the broader view, it's obvious that trying to stop it is only going to accelerate the degeneration of Western democracy and ultimately favor the rise of xenophobic populism. The only way to prevent that is to show people people that their vote actually matters, that it has concrete consequences. And if these consequences are terrible, so be it! Democracy has never been a guarantee of good policy choice. That's not the point. The point is that people are adults and citizens capable to make free choices, and these choices should be respected whether you like them or not.

[Antonio the Sixth]

1. There's quite literally no Brexit plan whatsoever except selling some guns to Turkey and bringing back the royal yacht. The white paper is terrifying reading. It's like a bunch of self-help business book affirmations.
2. There's been zero effort to address the Irish border issue, which is fundamentally unreconcilable and the outcome of which - a return to a hard border - will be in violation of our constitution and cause irreparable harm to Northern Ireland both economically and politically, including quite possibly the return of violence.
3. I must correct myself - there is a Brexit plan. It's to leave the single market and tank the economy because tabloid newspapers have scary headlines about immigration numbers. Hang on, you interrupt, didn't political titan Dan Hannan say that there was never any intention to quit the single ma--hah, never mind.

I don't dispute any of this, and I dearly hope that politicians find a way to mitigate the inevitable damage (it would be nice if they focused their efforts on doing that instead of engaging in this ridiculous posturing). But modern politics are based on democratic principles, and if we start saying that these principles only valid in such-and-such circumstances or that a group of self-appointed "experts" and moral guardians (who also happen to be rich and powerful) can override them when they deem it necessary "for the greater good", then these principles aren't worth sh*t.

I appreciate that I am the reason Trump Won but ironically enough the position of MPs here is basically that of Paul Ryan - political cowardice leading smoothly to utter capitulation in the face of incipient disaster caused by nationalist psychic trauma.

There are several differences I could point out here, but the most salient one is that 52% > 50% > 46%.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is the idea that the representatives of the people should abide by the decisions of the majority really that weird?

It is not so much weird, as simply wrong.

Who knew that "modern pragmatic centrists of the 21st century " would be the ones to resurrect Burke and Maistre?

[Antonio the Sixth]

So Tony, if you were a member of the Wisconsin legislature in 2007, would you fight to instate the death penalty? If you were an official in California's government around 2012 or so, would you fight against legalizing gay marriage?

...seriously?

[Antonio the Sixth]

So Tony, if you were a member of the Wisconsin legislature in 2007, would you fight to instate the death penalty? If you were an official in California's government around 2012 or so, would you fight against legalizing gay marriage?

...seriously?

The analogies fit. Wisconsin voted to reinstate the death penalty in 2006. California voted to ban gay marriage via Prop 8.

No they don't. There is a myriad of differences between those referendums and the Brexit vote and I really don't think it's worth listing them all, but one of the most obvious one is that it was organized through the PM's initiative and the consent of the Parliament.

[Antonio the Sixth]

We can debate as long as we want about the merits of referenda. However, when a referendum on such a highly salient and fundamental issue is called by the holders of representative democratic legitimacy, when it gives rise to a campaign that dominates all political debates for almost a year, when the basic stakes are made extremely clear (even if the greater implications might not be), then yes, the result of such referendum is morally binding.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Honestly, my main issue with Labour MPs' votes isn't even mainly a moral one. Above all, I just think it looks terrible. It looks terrible when you see the right-wing party perfectly unified in being willing to ratify the people's decision (even though, within that party, we all know that a majority view the people with the utmost contempt and think it was a horrible decision) whereas the left-wing party is split in half and the only voices for what is effectively the "f**k the voters" option come from that party. In a way, I'd accept their vote a lot better if this had been framed as political vote in which even Tories had felt free to vote their conscience (even though I'd still hope it passes). But as it stands, all those Labour MPs did was empty posturing - for a cause that has already lost, no less.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, the next two years are gonna be fun.

FTR, if I had to make up a pun for the title it would be "May or May not".