Opinion of Fatah

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

As someone who doesn't agree with DavidB's position on right of return (being a Muslim obviously),  I nonetheless have to agree with some blue avatars here. Fatah is probably no better, perhaps even worse, than Hamas, since they are horrifically corrupt. Definite HP.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

As someone who doesn't agree with DavidB's position on right of return (being a Muslim obviously),  I nonetheless have to agree with some blue avatars here. Fatah is probably no better, perhaps even worse, than Hamas, since they are horrifically corrupt. Definite HP.

Last time I checked, DavidB backed some sort of Right of Return.

That's natural yes. Traditional belief among Jews, especially the more conservative ones (I think). What's funny is that both Zionists and the especially pro-Palestinian people believe in a Right to return.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

As someone who doesn't agree with DavidB's position on right of return (being a Muslim obviously),  I nonetheless have to agree with some blue avatars here. Fatah is probably no better, perhaps even worse, than Hamas, since they are horrifically corrupt. Definite HP.

Last time I checked, DavidB backed some sort of Right of Return.

That's natural yes. Traditional belief among Jews, especially the more conservative ones (I think). What's funny is that both Zionists and the especially pro-Palestinian people believe in a Right to return.

I meant that he believes in one for Palestinians also.

If he did, I would be surprised.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Considering that the Jewish people as a people has historically been constituted partially on the basis of shared memory of and hope of return to the land of Israel, and that Jews have (partially for this reason) been treated as suspicious alien outsiders and violently killed en masse at various points in the history of essentially every European country, exasperatedly insisting to a Dutch Jew (I mean, seriously!) that 'his land is in Europe' is in exceptionally bad taste.

DavidB can call the Holy Land his home all he wants. I mean, I know how I feel a sort of connection with Makkah.
One can quibble with Chosen People idea and the stuff Israel does, but the right to independent thought, freedom of religion, and common sense dictate that you do not force Jews to give up closely held personal beliefs like that. In a sense, the Holy Land is a home for all three Abrahamiac religions. This of course includes Jews.
Green line certainly has the right to think the way he does too though, so there's that.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

so what's your definition of indigeneity, then? after all, palestinians have been living in the area for well over a millennium

Well, let's simply use the UN definition.

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Added in 1986:

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It is easy to read both the Jewish and the Palestinian narrative in this definition, and that's, of course, a big part of the problem -- but it's only a big part of the problem if one thinks in terms of a zero-sum logic in which only one people can live in/rule the land. I reject that idea because it will only bring us more bloodshed. Instead, a consociational solution needs to be found in which both national communities can rule themselves while making joint decisions on intercommunal affairs and foreign policy on a federal level, with both national communities having veto power.

So, basically, something similar to what like Bosnia has?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So, basically, something similar to what like Bosnia has?

Yes, but with an important exception: Bosnia's consociationalism is territorially based. If you live in the Serbian part, I don't think you can just pack up and move to the Bosniak part, although I'm no expert on this. Instead, both national communities should rule themselves on a non-territorial basis. If the West is to become officially or unofficially Jewish and the East is to become officially or unofficially Palestinian, you create the impression that these communities are trying to "steal" this land and make it theirs, which will cause problems. Instead, everyone should have the right to set up communities anywhere in the land, with the normal exceptions related to the preservation of nature, the environment etc.

Sounds reasonable.
Would people would registered as a member of one group or the other? And once registered, they would be able to vote in elections for said authority?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Sounds reasonable.
Would people would registered as a member of one group or the other? And once registered, they would be able to vote in elections for said authority?

Yes.

You know, that does sound like close to the ideal.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I mean, a one state power sharing government could work. Perhaps it could be based on a sort of Proporz Swiss system. Or a Belgian system with geographic and "community" legislatures. Or the northern Irish system, or the proposed Cypriot plan.

Point is, there are many ways to skin a cat. If Israel wants to expand to settle in all areas it will need to start seriously considering such governmental structures. Worse, they will have to make deals with the baddies. It sucks, but such is life.

What did you think about DavidB's proposal?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I honestly think it would be unworkable, although I'm not opposed to the idea in general. My issue is that it boils so much of the conflict down to identity, when inequality has emerged as just as big a problem. That comes up with the main flaw: the Palestinian government (i assume) would collect and spend taxes specifically for their own communities, and the Israeli government would do the same for their community. This would't be a concern for you know geographically separated areas, but it creates a mess when you do it together. Would there be two separate education systems, hospitals for Palestinians and Israelis? What about transport, or the police? Assuming the Palestinians will raise less tax than the Israelis, will this mean there will be substandard service that will exacerbate tension? What about other communities? Christians? Druze? Haridi? Could they form their own government?

The main problem for me, even getting past logistics, is it dramatically codifies separation in a way that I don't think is healthy. Maybe I'm too small c conservative but I want some geographic basis to my government. Maybe what would be best is a confederation, a South Africa style "reconciliation" to deal with crimes over the years on both sides, a loose federal government made up of a Proporz style cabinet of all major groups to mediate conflict and ensure development, a Bill of Rights and a United Jerusalem as capital.

I do like that as well. I wonder what a hybrid would look like.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Probably the Belgian government, where there are separate "linguistic governments" I assume. I mean, it's Belgium so nobody outside country has the foggiest idea what they do, but eh, I take slightly Byzantine and infuriating to living in a powder keg.

There is the small matter of the country's  name and flag. Sounds petty, but it's just the sort of issue that inflames Activists to no end. (Political activists' passions are inversely proportional to how important the issue is for the general population, so things like flags and post office names will always inspire utterly deranged conflicts from certain people.)

Yeah. What would a realistic flag design be?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Googling Palestine Israel United flag gives a few options most of which are just hybrids. I suppose the conflict would be whether the star and crescent should be on there alongside the Star of David. (The other religions would probably muscle in - maybe the Christian cross could make an appearance, but otherwise it would get silly. Also the Druze Star is pretty hideous, so I wouldn't put that on the flag.)

Or maybe it avoid the religious matter altogether (the Star of David is a quasi-religious symbol, but eh) and go with peace or unity themes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/3y4aig/flag_of_the_israelipalestinian_union/

https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/3pdaer/i_made_a_peace_flag_for_palestineisrael_oc/

(I quite like the former)

As do I. The first one is pretty good.