Hungarian official tells Jewish Org to 'mind its own business' over antisemitism (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 13, 2024, 02:06:23 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Hungarian official tells Jewish Org to 'mind its own business' over antisemitism (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Hungarian official tells Jewish Org to 'mind its own business' over antisemitism  (Read 1005 times)
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,246
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« on: February 14, 2019, 12:40:11 AM »

b-but david likes them so they can't be antisemitic Smiley
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,246
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2019, 04:20:28 PM »

Amazing how 2 out of 3 comments in here are about me while I hadn't even seen the news item or the thread yet. So many lovers, so little time!

Are you seriously going to claim you were unaware that Orban's government is full of people like this?
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,246
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2019, 09:48:51 PM »
« Edited: February 14, 2019, 09:55:11 PM by Secret Cavern Survivor »

My actual opinion: I'm conflicted on this one. I think the Hungarian government is fervently pro-Israel and a shining example to the rest of Europe in this and in many other regards. What's more, Soros is actually historically Hungarian and has gone to great lengths to affect its politics and civil society. Criticism of him is legitimate and only to be expected, regardless of what you think about his stances. I would agree with most of these criticisms.

However, it is also true that Soros' name is used a dogwhistle, and the Pittsburgh attack as well as developments in the Netherlands have taught me to take far-right antisemitism a lot more seriously than I did before. A recent campaign video of a Dutch political party that included a picture of Soros for two seconds with the spoken text "international networks" had a YouTube comment section that might as well have been Stormfront. So I do wish that right-wing parties would tone it down a little when it comes to Soros: if they don't, too many people feel as if their ideas about Jews are being confirmed by authoritative actos (which political parties are). On the one hand, this is a little unfair, as Soros is horrible and deserves all the criticism, but on the other hand one cannot ignore the extent to which criticism of Soros in many cases isn't just intended as criticism of Soros.

So I don't know this Jewish organization and its motives, but I'm not necessarily unsympathetic to their message to the Hungarian government, though I treat it with some skepticism (how do Fidesz' campaigns affect British Jews?).

That's all well and good, and I'm certainly not the one to say that billionaires who try to influence politics are above reproach. The thing you don't really address though is that the nature of the attacks on Soros are of a specific kind that plays right into deep-seated antisemitic tropes. Compare with, say, the tone of attacks that people like Bloomberg or Howard Schulz get (not that those attacks are never antisemitic either, but they at least usually aren't). And the fact that Soros is brought in as the grand puppetmaster in conspiracy theories about things he has objectively nothing to do.

But the broader point, really, is your egregious double standard between left- and right-wing politicians whenever it comes to antisemitism. I wouldn't mind you taking the more nuanced stance that you're taking in this post if you applied it consistently - just like I wouldn't mind your hyperbolic comments on Corbyn and Omar for (in the latter case) relying on the exact same antisemitic tropes as Orban's people but actually apologizing when called out, or (in the former) being too lenient on other people doing the same thing. I don't mind either of those things taken on their own, but when you put the two on display simultaneously, it becomes clear that you are using antisemitism as a rhetorical cudgel against people your have policy disagreements with rather than only or primarily out of any principled opposition to it.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,246
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2019, 04:27:27 PM »

Believe it or not, I don't like impugning people's good faith, and only do so as a last resort when I'm wondering if I'm wasting my time arguing with someone who's just interested in getting a rise out of people rather than exchanging honest opinions. These types, we'll agree, are sadly all too common on the internet. Anyway, the fact that you are going to such lengths to answer this contention (something I hadn't seen you do before) convinces me that you are sincere.

I maintain that you are applying a double standard, though, even if you're doing so sincerely. The fact that you admit that your "complex calculation" largely boils down to "gut feeling" should be a pretty obvious clue that you might be letting your partisan views color your reaction to various instances of antisemitism based on who they originate from. This takes at least two forms I've noticed. The first is that, while you claim to have lost your naivety about right-wing antisemitism (and yes, it still remains absolutely baffling and frankly inexcusable that you ever harbored such naivety considering not only the Shoah but the long and rich history of postwar neofascist/neonazi movements of which modern European far-right parties are often direct successors), I haven't really seen you act on it. You claim to be conflicted about Fidesz and other such movements, but every time that a discussion on them appears on Atlas, you act like a fanboy, not like someone who appreciates their political project but is deeply troubled by some aspects of their rhetoric.

Obviously, the most important double standard is your assessment itself. Now, my thoughts on anti-Zionism are well documented on this forum, so let's please avoid strawmen. If an actual, overt anti-Zionist was the leader of a left-wing party in a country with significant foreign policy clout, then yes, I would agree that that leader would pose a bigger threat to Jews worldwide than Orban. However, this has never been the issue with Corbyn. All you can accuse Corbyn of is 1. to associate with such people for the sake of political convenience, 2. to be deeply insensitive toward people who are rightly offended by that, and 3. to himself have specific circumstanced stances against the current Israeli government's behavior. Now, 1 and 2 are certainly bad things, and again, I'm on the record here condemning them in unambiguous terms. But none poses the kind of existential threat to Israel that you're talking about here - the people Corbyn associated with don't have any serious influence on his foreign policy, and he has, if half-heartedly and belatedly, distanced himself from them. There is so indication so far that Corbyn questions Israel's right to exist.

Now, if you want to say questioning specific actions by the current Israeli government is inherently antisemitic, I hope you realize the consequences of what you're saying. You're saying that, by virtue of a State providing a safe haven for an ethnic minority, any action by whoever happens to hold the reins of power in that State is beyond criticism. Surely you realize what an absurd principle it is. Now, a lot of criticisms of Israel's actions do use rhetoric that's based on antisemitic tropes or is otherwise insensitive to Jewish culture and history - that was the core of the issue with Omar's comments. I actually don't know if Corbyn himself has done so, but let's assume for the sake of argument that he has. Do those comments, in and of themselves, pose a greater threat to Jews worldwide than the kind of antisemitic dog-whistling that Orban&friends use? Now, I might be wrong about this, but my impression is that antisemitic acts are generally far more prevalent in Eastern European countries with Orban-like politicians either in power or otherwise as heads of powerful parties, than they are in the UK or in Minnesota.

And do criticisms of the Israeli government's actions, even unfair ones, threaten its continued existence? How? At most, they could lead to a country providing less aid and support to Israel, which, yes, would be an unfortunate outcome, but still a far cry from threatening its survival, unless you want to go all in on a slippery slope fallacy. No serious leader of a western country would ever consider letting Israel be obliterated, let alone actively militate for that. Corbyn has certainly given no indication that he would do either (Omar seems potentially liable to do the former, but luckily she'll never be in a position to). You might disagree with the two-state solution, but its implementation would, by definition, imply Israel's continued existence, so the whole "insurance policy" argument falls flat here.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.038 seconds with 12 queries.