Legal description of Hudson's city boundaries

[Torie]

The notch is in the city? That's the historic Bronson house there.

Would you please draw the exact line, and what language you are relying upon, and the explanation please?

[jimrtex]

Suggested Corrections Part 2



(7) Correctly align city boundary.

(8) Align road.

(9) Eliminate extraneous/misplaced driveway.

(10) Eliminate misplaced internal roads in prison. This is just busy work for prison officials to attempt to locate cell locations.

(11) Add road along southern fence. Presumption: Public access for visitors, suppliers, etc. is from E Court Street around west and southern side to main parking lot, or along road outside fence that continues out to Worth Avenue (ie this is public access to prison). Use portion of E Court Street north of prison as block boundary.

(12) Use railroad south of Union St west to Front Street as block boundary.

(13) Use prison as block boundary (already planned by Census).

[jimrtex]

The notch is in the city? That's the historic Bronson house there.

Would you please draw the exact line, and what language you are relying upon, and the explanation please?

Is that the two story brick building? Is it used in conjunction with the cemetery?

Or is it the white clapboard farmhouse just to the (southwest) on Ten Broeck (it is set back in trees, so go check before it disappears)?

[jimrtex]

Suggested Corrections Part 3



(7) Align City Boundary. City seems to belief the break is at 3rd Street - this does not match their map from the 1930s.

(14) Remove Extraneous Street. Eliminate block.

(15) What is former rail bed used for? It is currently still classified as RR, with Conrail name. It is also misaligned west of 3rd Street. It should not be used as block boundary, unless it is now considered to be extension of Front Street.

(16) Extraneous part of RR junction no longer exists. Eliminate block.

(17) What is this? It is classified as "Nonvisible Linear Legal/Statistical Boundary" Of what?

[jimrtex]

Suggested Corrections Part 4



(12) [not numbered on map] Use railroad as block boundary from Union Street to Front Street. When track splits west of 3rd Street, use northern track.

(15) Reclassify/realign former railbed, including connection from form rail junction north to current end of Front Street.

(15A) Remove former connection to mainline RR.

(18) Remove extraneous driveway - in any event it connects to Broad Street and not Front Street.

(19) Complete connection of railroads to mainline (both ends of wye).

(20) Eliminate spurious street north of Ferry, west of RR tracks.

(20.1) Eliminate Ferry Street through parking lot.

(20.2) Add extension of Ferry St to river. (everything north of Ferry + extension, west of RR tracks merged into single block.

(21) Is this part of 2nd Street, or Tanners Lane, or Montgomery St. Currently this is labeled as 2nd Street, which seems odd since there is only that small jog that is north-south.

(22) Does South Alley exist?

(23) West branch of Deer Alley parallels street grid, and not that little twig off Cross Lane.

(23.5) Does Tanners Lane connect to 3rd Street? If so, this segment should be reclassified as street. If not it should be removed. It is currently classified as a "P0001 - Nonvisible Linear Legal/Statistical Boundary" evidently to form a block boundary. Its use was eliminated for 2010. With RR tracks as block boundary, there is really no need for it (block would be bounded by Front and 3rd; Allen and RR tracks).

(24) Add loop on end of Willard. Do not use as block boundary.

(25) Eliminate non existent street. The spike will become part of the block to the north.

[jimrtex]

Suggested Corrections Part 5



(12) Use Railroad south of Union as block boundary.

(26) South end of Hudson Avenue is superfluous.

(26.5) Cherry Alley eon both sides of 4th Street is designated as an imaginary line for statistical purposes. At one time, someone must have decided it was needed to split the blocks. In 2010, the "imaginary line" was ignored (the census blocks on either side of 4th Street on the south side of Warren go all the way through to Union). But Cherry Alley appears to be very real. I would re-classify as a street, to be consistent with usage elsewhere in Hudson that the named alleys are considered to be streets.

(27) Possible connection of Cherry Alley to Warren (this may just be parking lot).

(28) Extraneous road west of hospital.

(29) Haviland Place appears to go further north.

(30) Extraneous street south of State.

(31) Two Extraneous streets between Long Alley and State St. 3 blocks merged.

(32) Extraneous street removed.

(33) Rope Alley appears to go through between 6th and 7th street.

(34) Trim ends of Joe Alley to actual extent.

(35) Use railroad north of State Street as census block boundary (divides Green Street from Glenwood Boulevard).

[jimrtex]

Suggested Corrections Part 6



(35) Use Railroad as Block Boundary.

(36) Eliminate extraneous tail on Railroad Ave

(37) Eliminate spurious north-south segment of Columbia Turnpike.

(38) Eliminate extraneous street. On left is census bureau location, on right is actual apparent location, but it appears that it is more a long driveway. I suspect that if any houses face it, they have Columbia St addresses.

(39) Make Oakdale Pond a census block.

(40) Delineate stream bed and use as census block boundary.

(41) Reinstate extension of Jenkins Parkway.

(42) Make census block (Jenkins Parkway to Fairview Ave, Bayley Blvd to Railroad).

(43) Remove extraneous road through parking lot. Eliminates corner census block.

[jimrtex]

Suggested Corrections Part 7



(44) Eliminate extraneous driveway, and census block.

(45) Use walkway from Warren St and Front Street to Promenade Hill as linear feature and extend to RR tracks. Use as a block boundary.

(46) Eliminate extraneous street and extension west of Front Street at State Street.

(47) Extend Dock Street definition westward and include extension to RR tracks. This will form the northern boundary of the Front Street block, which will extend from Ferry to Dock, between Front St and the RR tracks, with a possible split at Warren - see (45).

(48) Eliminate Front Street and imaginary statistical line.

(48.5) Eliminate many of the statistical boundaries. The Census Bureau may resist because this is boundary between Census Tracts 12 and 13. Generally, CT 13 is south of Warren, but west of Front Street it extends north to the remnant open water of North Bay and then out into the Hudson. In the eastern part of the city, the boundary is 6th Street and Glenwood Blvd, with the area to the south in CT 13.

Currently, the shoreline of the Hudson is delineated, as well as the main open-water estuary of North Bay. Both RR tracks are delineated, though only one is used as a block boundary. The center-line of the channel of the branch of North Bay along the RR tracks has also been delineated. (Construction of the RR has essentially dammed off North Bay and facilitated it being filled, or becoming marsh land.)

South of the estuary in CT 13, the blocks are: Hudson River proper; shore-line to RR tracks; and RR tracks to Front Street (imaginary line extended north of Dock St).

North of the estuary in CT 12, the blocks are: Hudson River proper; shore-line to estuary; estuary itself; and estuary to 2nd Street.

I would use Dock Street to cut across from Front Street to the RR tracks. Then the only statistical line that is needed is the line dividing the Hudson.

(49) Refine stream boundary. This currently looks like an extension of Mill Street west of 2nd Street. I propose defining the stream across Hudson so that it can be used as a block boundary. As a visible feature it qualifies.

[jimrtex]

Suggested Corrections Part 7 (details)



The types of lines are color coded:

Light Blue - Persistent shoreline: Hudson River, and North Bay open-water estuary.
Dark Blue - Centerline of small streams: North Bay immediately east of RR tracks, and creek to Underhill Pond and beyond.

Brown - Railroad tracks: Both tracks are delineated, only one is used for block boundary.

Gold - City Streets: Front Street and Dock Street
Beige - Extraneous street (delineated but not present in in reality): Front Street north of Dock St.
Green - Missing street (present in reality, but not delineated by Census Bureau): Dock St west of current delineated stub, west of Front Street.

Red - Imaginary lines for statistical purposes:

The line northward from Front St and Dock St, westward across the estuary, and out to the middle of the Hudson is the current boundary between Census Tract 12 and 13.
The line northward from the fake Front Street has no apparent purpose.
The line that connects the two segments of the Hudson shoreline across the estuary is not currently used, and the RR tracks are and can be used to close the estuary.



Color codes are by block group.

Green is CT 12, BG 1;
Purple is CT 12, BG 2;
Pink is CT 13, BG 1;

My proposal is to eliminate Front Street north of Dock Street (non-existent); extend the delineation of Dock Street to the west to reach the RR tracks; and eliminate all of the imaginary lines except from the RR bridge over the estuary to the middle of the Hudson.

Area A would be added to 12-2000 (north of Dock Street to stream), between 2nd Street and RR tracks.
Areas B and C would be added to 12-2004 (North Bay estuary). Area C is moved to use west track of RR as the block line.

If the Census Bureau insists in maintaining the census tract boundaries, then the imaginary lines from Front Street north and west to across estuary would have to be maintained.

Area A would be a new census block in CT 13, BG 1.
Area B would be a new census block in CT 13, BG 1.
Area C would be moved from 12-1007 to 12-1004.

[Torie]

Yeah, the Bronson House is on the other side of Worth. My bad. I really can't figure out what you are doing. The colors confuse me. And what are the numbers? And I still don't understand the blue lines in the notch with a number 7 there. Maybe when you prepare a master map, it will make more sense. I also still don't quite understand where you moved the city boundary lines.

[muon2]

A lot of jimrtex's suggestions look like sound corrections for the Census. As he pointed out, the trick is to get to the state's contact with the Census during the period when they are bringing changes for the next cycle. Most communities never do that and they accumulate many small errors over time.

[Torie]

Why create census blocks where nobody lives? Why is it necessary to use the river for its entire length through Hudson, rather than just sections of it where useful?  The blue line where I put the red arrow does not seem to relate to anything on the ground. If you want to create an empty census block, why not just use the intersection of an extension of Mill Street and 3rd Street? (Oh, actually there are two or three houses there on 2nd street in the southwest corner.) See below.

Oh, I called the redistricting project at the census bureau (301-763-4039), to learn how the process works, and what the deadlines are, and somebody took my phone number, and said somebody would call me back.



 

[Torie]

The May 31 deadline is indeed the deadline. You make the changes on a software program that Latfor has. I am in contact with Latfor. So we need to get this map done soon. Maybe I can persuade them to let me play with the disk.

[Torie]

OK, I am on top of this. The census bureau person who is in charge of this called me. It needs to be done by disk, not manually, by NY state officials, who were went a disk. The census blocks are generated from aerials. There have been substantial corrections for NY since the 2010 census. So what I need Jimrtex is a simple map showing the most important changes, to get more access. Other changes can come later. So if you would bifurcate the census blocks that I bifurcated below on an existing census map using an aerial to show the physical features, that would be great. I can send it to the US census bureau and to Latfor (the guy I talked to at Latfor seemed to know nothing about the program  (but per Colleen he might not be the right point person because they have the disk), and he asked me to send him a detailed email I want the map I am requesting from you attached, and will  copy Colleen on it, and bcc you.

With any luck they will send me a disk, or let me play with Hudson in Latfor's Albany offices. I doubt someone there will devote much time to Hudson personally. We shall see. Thanks.

Oh yes. The US census bureau only does physical features, not projections from a physical point. They are not surveyors. So I don't think we have a physical feature to divide Mill Street from the firemen's home, or crosswinds from the portion of the census block with 75 people that is currently split by the ward lines, or the homes on west Union near Worth Ave. from the prison facilities. That is too bad, but if no physical feature to use as a dividing line, we are screwed, or so I was told by Colleen at the US census bureau.



Oh, and please also bisect the big cahuna census block, even though I am not sure there is a qualifying physical feature (and I don't know exactly where the river front census block starts, but I ever confidence that you do), but maybe we can get away with it somehow. Thanks again Jimrtex. You sir, are going to continue to have a substantial impact on what actually happens in Hudson. Enjoy! I call you in the Hudson power circles, "my secret weapon of mass destruction."   They wondered who my mole was that was feeding me information. I told them my mole lived in Houston, and just had taken an interest in Hudson, and loved to solve puzzles, and apparently was as fascinated by Hudson as I was. That left them confused!

[jimrtex]

Why create census blocks where nobody lives? Why is it necessary to use the river for its entire length through Hudson, rather than just sections of it where useful?  The blue line where I put the red arrow does not seem to relate to anything on the ground. If you want to create an empty census block, why not just use the intersection of an extension of Mill Street and 3rd Street? (Oh, actually there are two or three houses there on 2nd street in the southwest corner.) See below.

Oh, I called the redistricting project at the census bureau (301-763-4039), to learn how the process works, and what the deadlines are, and somebody took my phone number, and said somebody would call me back.



 

The entire country is divided into census blocks. Census blocks are the atom of census geography:

This is the census hierarchy. Each sublevel nests into the level above, and completely covers it.

USA
State (or equivalent)
County (or equivalent)
Census Tract
Block Group
Census Block

Entities such as cities can be aggregated from Census Blocks.

In Columbia County, the Census Tracts happen to coincide with the towns (and city), except Hudson and Kinderhook are each divided into two census tracts. Census tracts were originally created in the 1920s in large cities. The census bureau would tabulate data based on census tracts. Otherwise, New York City and Taghkanic would have the same level of detail. Eventually, census tracts covered the entire country.

Census tracts are (were) the smallest area for reporting statistical information. Before 2010, this was based on information from the long form, which was sent to about 1 in 6 households. That is, it is based on a sample. To have a meaningful sample it has to be of a certain size. If you had 50 households and surveyed 1/6 (8 households) your values won't be very good. Census tracts have an ideal population of 4000, with a range of 1200 to 8000. In high growth areas, census tracts are divided. In areas with substantial population decline, census tracts can be merged.

Census tracts are intended to be stable, so that data can be compared over time (measure trends). So somewhere in time, it was decided that Columbia County should have census tracts. The towns are generally of a size to qualify for their own census tract, and that was the simplest way to do it. Towns like Taghkanic are pushing the lower limit, and might have been put in a tract with another town. Hudson and Kinderhook were too big and were split.

Generally, the boundary in Hudson is along Warren, with the eastern boundary following 6th and Glenwood. They had to find a way to cut through to the western boundary, so they went up Front Street and out into the Hudson.

In 1990, when they divided the entire country into census blocks, they created what were then called Block Numbering Groups. Blocks within a census tract had a three digit number, and the hundreds digit was the block numbering group. Beginning with 2010, block numbers were increased to four digits, and the thousands digit indicated the Block Group (new name for 2010).

If you look at block numbers, they go:

1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, ..., 1013 (for example)
2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, ..., 2008 (for example)
...

Block Groups are intended to organize numbering of blocks, but they are also used for statistical data. If you wanted an estimate of the CVAP or the number of Bangladeshis, you can get that information for block groups, but not census blocks.

This map shows the block groups for Hudson. The numbers indicate the census tract and block groups. The notation "12.1" is not something the census bureau uses. It was something that I could quickly generate.

[jimrtex]

Suggested Corrections Part 1+



The thick yellow lines are lines that the Census Bureau currently knows about. They are generally streets and roads, but not all of them. Each line has as code associated with it, MTFCC, or MAF/TIGER Feature Classification Code. Census blocks are bounded by closed paths. Not all lines are used to define census blocks, but all census blocks are defined by the lines.

The 2010 block boundaries are thin black lines on top of the yellow lines. I have colored-coded changes. When I add new lines, I'll use a different color. There are new lines on  this map.

Red: Remove as lines, remove as block  boundaries.
Green: Possible new block boundary.
Gold: Misaligned.
Pink: Non-existent.
Blue: Keep line, but eliminate as block boundary.

(1) Cemeteries.

In Cedar Park Cemetery, particularly there are a bunch of census blocks. The roads are badly misaligned with reality, and there are other roads are missing.

I do not think that roads within a cemetery are: "Local Neighborhood Road, Rural Road, or City Street".
Using internal roads and driveways are just confusing. They might serve a purpose in a large apartment complex.

At minimum, they should not be census blocks. I would actually remove them as lines. Note there is another small block  at the north end of the old cemetery.

The green line is an existing line classified as a "Property/Parcel Line"  it is the boundary of the cemetery. The census bureau has what it calls "areal landmarks". They can be shown on census maps, and useful for orientation. If it can be used as a census block boundary, then we can draw boxes around Westwind and the Firemen's Home.

(2) There is wobble on Columbia Turnpike. It can be ignored for now.

(3) There is horrible mismatch of the streets on Prospect Hill, and Vanwinkle is spelled incorrectly. This can potentially lead to enumeration mistakes. Since none of the streets close polygons, it doesn't matter as far as creating census blocks.

(4) Rossman Avenue misaligned through water-plant (can be ignored, since does not result in problems identifying the location).

(5) These are classified "Perennial Shoreline". At one time Hudson had reservoirs on Reservoir Hill. They were replaced by the domed tank.

(6) Non-existent street, that forms part of block boundary. In 2000, this block was enumerated with 74 persons. I suspect that someone had tried to make the area between Worth Avenue and Worth Alley a "block" and it caused confusion.

This might help

Hudson block map (PDF)

[muon2]

It might also be nice to get the Census to rearrange the block groups, too. In particular it would better reflect the political geography to have jimrtex's 12.2 include the north half of the river front block and extend north along 2nd.

[jimrtex]

OK, I am on top of this. The census bureau person who is in charge of this called me. It needs to be done by disk, not manually, by NY state officials, who were went a disk. The census blocks are generated from aerials. There have been substantial corrections for NY since the 2010 census. So what I need Jimrtex is a simple map showing the most important changes, to get more access. Other changes can come later. So if you would bifurcate the census blocks that I bifurcated below on an existing census map using an aerial to show the physical features, that would be great. I can send it to the US census bureau and to Latfor (the guy I talked to at Latfor seemed to know nothing about the program  (but per Colleen he might not be the right point person because they have the disk), and he asked me to send him a detailed email I want the map I am requesting from you attached, and will  copy Colleen on it, and bcc you.

With any luck they will send me a disk, or let me play with Hudson in Latfor's Albany offices. I doubt someone there will devote much time to Hudson personally. We shall see. Thanks.

Oh yes. The US census bureau only does physical features, not projections from a physical point. They are not surveyors. So I don't think we have a physical feature to divide Mill Street from the firemen's home, or crosswinds from the portion of the census block with 75 people that is currently split by the ward lines, or the homes on west Union near Worth Ave. from the prison facilities. That is too bad, but if no physical feature to use as a dividing line, we are screwed, or so I was told by Colleen at the US census bureau.



Oh, and please also bisect the big cahuna census block, even though I am not sure there is a qualifying physical feature (and I don't know exactly where the river front census block starts, but I ever confidence that you do), but maybe we can get away with it somehow. Thanks again Jimrtex. You sir, are going to continue to have a substantial impact on what actually happens in Hudson. Enjoy! I call you in the Hudson power circles, "my secret weapon of mass destruction."   They wondered who my mole was that was feeding me information. I told them my mole lived in Houston, and just had taken an interest in Hudson, and loved to solve puzzles, and apparently was as fascinated by Hudson as I was. That left them confused!

You may want to download QGIS:

QGIS download

The census program is built on top of it (I'm wondering whether a redistricting program could be built on top of it).

The Census Bureau only wants to deal with one person in each state. In addition, since the fundamental purpose is redistricting, they want a bipartisan effort. So they start out with the governor and the legislative leaders. In New York, the legislative leaders are corrupt, and Cuomo might or might not care. Perhaps if someone from the census bureau came to Albany, he and Cuomo could go out to eat, and share a nice$$$ bottle of wine.

Parts of the program suggest that work flow be done on a county-by-county basis. This presents a problem, since the big counties and NYC probably have better GIS than NYS, and the smaller counties probably have a hard time with paper maps (Hamilton). The folks in Albany probably have a hard time dealing with people in Columbia County since they work for different governments, and the Columbia County probably consider the city of Hudson to be one of many towns (and cities), while Hudson probably considers the county to be at best a peer.

The census bureau does permit the use of line-of-sight extensions up to 300 feet. That is what I am using on 3rd Street (to Mill Street) and Clinton Street to (Harry Howard.)  It does not permit them at T's, so no luck for 5th Street and Clinton, or Warren at Front. I think the walkway to Promenade Hill might qualify.

In the past, it appears that someone tried to create census blocks (if your model of a census block is  area with 5 to 50 houses). These "statistical lines" still exist, but for the most part were not used in 2010. So in some cases, I'm proposing to eliminate them, because they are not really needed for useful blocks. And in a few instances proposing to reinstate them as extensions of streets.

In the next year or so, there will be a program to define VTDs. In the past, the block-suggestion program and VTD definition program were combined, so the split is new.

From 2010, the census bureau did permit use of artificial lines. The directions suggested that the census bureau didn't like it, and you probably wouldn't like, and you would probably have nightmares of the census bureau strangling you, and your state might not let you, but you could. I think a case could be made for lines that have been in place for 130 to 160 years. In the case of the 5th street extension, you can now give a precise location because of the survey. The census bureau will create block boundaries for VTDs.

[jimrtex]

I think I can format some of the changes using this guide.

BBSP Using Your Own Software Participant Guide(PDF)

The whole process is set up to be performed on a county-by-county basis. If I were in charge of the program for New York State, I would either contact the Board of Supervisors, or the Columbia County Planning/Economic Development

This would depend on whether a government-to-government approach was used, or a more technocrat approach was used.

Patrice Perry is the senior planner. Don Moore showed general interest when he was council president. Maybe they know something.

[jimrtex]

Query 1:



This map is of Prospect Hill. The pale red streets are the current census version of the streets. The red are my revised version.

What are the proper names of the streets, and what are the street addresses?

There are five segments:

(1) As you come south on Rossman Avenue, there is a sharp left and you are probably climbing.
What is the name of that street? (no houses fronting it).
(2) There is a right turn. what is the street name, and what are the house numbers?
(3) If you continue straight ahead, what is the street name and what are the house numbers?
(4) There is a small stub straight ahead, what is the break in house numbers.
(5) What is the street to the left (north)? What are the street numbers?

[jimrtex]

Query 2:



Does the road going west from Worth Avenue towards HCI have a name?

Can you drive from Worth Avenue on that road, and then just south of the fence and on past the parking lot and out on E Court Place?

[Torie]

The road is on the prison property, and does not have a name to my knowledge. There is a locked gate on Worth Avenue.

[jimrtex]

The road is on the prison property, and does not have a name to my knowledge. There is a locked gate on Worth Avenue.

Interesting.  Here is the map from the Property Tax Office. The prison property goes from 3rd Street to Worth Avenue, and to the back property line along Union.



I did not draw the green line in this map. The census intends to treat institutional group quarters as block boundaries (prisons and colleges and universities). If the larger area were used, then there would be a census block for just the area along Union and Worth, and two small unpopulated areas on 3rd Street.



Who is responsible for demarcating prisons?

BTW, the tax office may have the large scale maps showing the city limits.

[Torie]

The Bronson House is described as on prison grounds. When I have time, I will find out who the legal owner is.

[jimrtex]

Query 1:



This map is of Prospect Hill. The pale red streets are the current census version of the streets. The red are my revised version.

What are the proper names of the streets, and what are the street addresses?

There are five segments:

(1) As you come south on Rossman Avenue, there is a sharp left and you are probably climbing.
What is the name of that street? (no houses fronting it).
(2) There is a right turn. what is the street name, and what are the house numbers?
(3) If you continue straight ahead, what is the street name and what are the house numbers?
(4) There is a small stub straight ahead, what is the break in house numbers.
(5) What is the street to the left (north)? What are the street numbers?

Here is the map from the tax office.



It looks like it platted as condominiums, but only the first three units have a separate property assessment and addresses of 1,2,3 Van Winkle.

Moreover, all the others are shown on the 2015 tax rolls as vacant land. Are most of the units very new?