MN Sen Recount (UPDATE: Stuart Smalley certified winner, lawsuit forthcoming)

[emailking]

Not only are the dates not required to match in order for the vote to be counted, the signatures aren't required to be dated in order for the vote to count.

Coleman is scum.

That's true. But suppose under the witness signature, the witness wrote "I didn't acutally witness this. I was just given the ballot and asked to sign." Should that ballot be counted because there is no requirement that the handwritten witness statement confirm that s/he actually witnessed the ballot signing...or even a requirement for a handwritten witness statement?

[muon2]

Not only are the dates not required to match in order for the vote to be counted, the signatures aren't required to be dated in order for the vote to count.

Coleman is scum.

That's true. But suppose under the witness signature, the witness wrote "I didn't acutally witness this. I was just given the ballot and asked to sign." Should that ballot be counted because there is no requirement that the handwritten witness statement confirm that s/he actually witnessed the ballot signing...or even a requirement for a handwritten witness statement?

Every state has some level of this type of election laws. When they are enacted, everyone is wildly in favor of them as protections against fraud. However, as we see in MN, many of the laws seem overly picky when they have to be tested in a close race. I'm not sure how to resolve the apparent public good attempted by enacting the laws versus the public desire for common sense when the laws are put to the test.

It gets more confusing when you look at the individual state case law. In each state some of the picky rules will have been judged enforceable and mandatory, and others are not fatal to a candidate or vote. Legislatures rarely clean up the laws like these that courts have ruled against, so they remain on the books but unenforced. Without an experienced election attorney, it's impossible to know which laws must hold.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

assert that homeschooling should be illegal,

Never heard a sane person who was not an American citizen claim any different.

So you believe that children are basically instruments for government indoctrination?  Sick.

Nature has given us the family for a reason.

Correction: Nature has given us society for a reason.
The family (the core family, that is. Not the extended family. Which really used to be the same thing as society anyways. The core family as pretending-to-be-self-contained unit.) is a 19th ideological construct and wholly unnatural to man.
It's actually a later invention than compulsory schooling.
And yes, obviously the government-run school system has indoctrination issues as well. Though obviously not on the same scale. As do private schools. It's not, after all, possible to tell where education ends and indoctrination begins, exactly.[/serious reply to troll comment]

Which answers your query too, Red - me'n Gully aren't too far apart (though sane he isn't, not quite. But that's a different story).

I'm glad to know you think I'm not sane. Progress at last!

Actually I've moderated my position on this recently, simply because I have grown recognition of what in reality fully private education would mean.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

ITT: Gully admits I was right all along.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

ITT: Gully admits I was right all along.

NO.

I still don't support public education, my fear is what that abolishing it would greatly increase class differences at least in the Anglo-Saxon world where class and education (in the modern, liberal sense) are closely linked together. Actually that's hardly the only reason. Though I still believe that keeping most kids in education after 12yrs of age is pointless and unneccesary.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

ITT: Gully admits I was right all along.

NO.

I still don't support public education, my fear is what that abolishing it would greatly increase class differences at least in the Anglo-Saxon world where class and education (in the modern, liberal sense) are closely linked together. Actually that's hardly the only reason. Though I still believe that keeping most kids in education after 12yrs of age is pointless and unneccesary.

LMAO. So now you're a child labor advocate. I was in school until 24, and I know people who'll be in it even longer.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

ITT: Gully admits I was right all along.

NO.

I still don't support public education, my fear is what that abolishing it would greatly increase class differences at least in the Anglo-Saxon world where class and education (in the modern, liberal sense) are closely linked together. Actually that's hardly the only reason. Though I still believe that keeping most kids in education after 12yrs of age is pointless and unneccesary.

LMAO. So now you're a child labor advocate. I was in school until 24, and I know people who'll be in it even longer.

Yes, and look at what you have achieved! Thanks for proving my point.

Btw define "Child Labour"?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

ITT: Gully admits I was right all along.

NO.

I still don't support public education, my fear is what that abolishing it would greatly increase class differences at least in the Anglo-Saxon world where class and education (in the modern, liberal sense) are closely linked together. Actually that's hardly the only reason. Though I still believe that keeping most kids in education after 12yrs of age is pointless and unneccesary.

LMAO. So now you're a child labor advocate. I was in school until 24, and I know people who'll be in it even longer.

Yes, and look at what you have achieved! Thanks for proving my point.

A lot more than I would've achieved ending school at 12. What could I do then besides flip burgers? You must have a high school diploma to get hired at my job and a degree helps (as it did in my case.)

Btw define "Child Labour"?

Anything currently prohibited under child labor laws, like employing 12-year olds full time (which you call for.)

[Ronnie]

I hate asking this, but is there any possibility Coleman gets his request in the court?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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That's because the employment system is so messed up that it requires a high school education to get a decent(ish) job.

Education up to second level, mass education that is, is a waste of time if you want to really know stuff. (Yes, I can be an intellectual elitist - but on this point alone. Given the talent variation between 13 year olds it seems a waste of time to lump them all together into some mediorce mush.)

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Which I never said, just implied. In saying that I wouldn't be totally against removing some child labour laws - excluding those on manual labour, etc. There are loads of jobs which just need computer skills and literacy - with promotions from actual experience, rather than fairly useless academic knowledge one learns at the secondary level, though now that I think of it further I think the dropoff point should be 14, not 12.

(yes, I know what I just said just violated another thing I believe in. Reality can be complicated sometimes)

[muon2]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's because the employment system is so messed up that it requires a high school education to get a decent(ish) job.

Education up to second level, mass education that is, is a waste of time if you want to really know stuff. (Yes, I can be an intellectual elitist - but on this point alone. Given the talent variation between 13 year olds it seems a waste of time to lump them all together into some mediorce mush.)

Actually, in the US today the employment system effectively requires at least a college degree to get a decent(ish) job. Studies this decade show that people with less than a college degree have employment with wages that do not grow in real buying power. Here's the table from one IL study comparing median hourly wages from 1980 to 2006 in adjusted 2006 dollars:

Education	1980	1990	2000	2006
Less than HS	$13.11	$10.22	$9.58	$9.34
HS degree		$14.25	$13.03	$13.00
Some College	$14.59	$14.73	$14.48	$13.95
BA or Higher	$20.12	$22.02	$23.72	$23.01

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

That's because the employment system is so messed up that it requires a high school education to get a decent(ish) job.

HS graduates can get decent jobs?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

That's because the employment system is so messed up that it requires a high school education to get a decent(ish) job.

HS graduates can get decent jobs?

Well, I guess that depends on what one defines as decent (reply to Muon too).

My point here is though this is all due to the competitive enviornment of the Education system, once a bar reaches a further and further level (ie. Needing a degree for a decent job, this is the case here aswell) then it becomes neccesary for everyone, as much as possible, to reach that level, no matter what their talents are.

[minionofmidas]

Just quoting you from memory, Gull.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Coleman is such a freaking hypocrite. He called upon Franken to concede, but now that Franken appears to have won the thing, he's going to prolong this as long as possible. He is the same horrible person who spun Wellstone's funeral as a campaign event. Hopefully Coleman moves on from the US Senate to prison soon.

[Rococo4]

Coleman is such a freaking hypocrite. He called upon Franken to concede, but now that Franken appears to have won the thing, he's going to prolong this as long as possible. He is the same horrible person who spun Wellstone's funeral as a campaign event. Hopefully Coleman moves on from the US Senate to prison soon.

oh yeah it was coleman who turned it into a political event. 

[© tweed]

"Cornyn threatens filibuster over Franken"

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/16998.html

[emailking]

If Franken has been certified, I'm guessing this won't be successful...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

He's saying that he'll do that as long as everything isn't complete or whatever. Though if the Canvassing Board certifies Franken as the winner, it becomes weak to argue we need to wait for Coleman's time-wasting lawsuits to go through. Besides, I doubt Conryn would argue the same thing about Florida 2000. Once Katherine Harris certified Bush as the winner (the equivalent of the Canvassing Board certifying Franken), it was over according to Republicans and Gore was just being a sore loser.

Though if the Canvassing Board certifies Franken and there's still outstanding lawsuits, it'll only take one or two GOP crossovers to end the filibuster.

[muon2]

Will Cornyn or someone plan to draw a distinction between the seating of Franken compared to Burris in the Senate? Both will arrive with official credentials from their state and both with a legal cloud surrounding the credentials for that seat. It's true that one is an election and one is an appointment, but is that enough to draw the distinction?

[Sam Spade]

The real question is whether the 40 votes exist or not.  As pointed out in The Hill piece, Franken will not get a certificate of election if Coleman challenges the election in court.

[Lunar]

My opinion on what Coleman is doing:

1) Helping his future career: no matter what he does (visiting professor, lobbyist, future candidate), he'll be better off the more artificial controversy injected into his loss.  Of course, the national and state GOP definitely wants as little legitimacy inserted into Franken's victory as possible.

2) He has nothing to lose. 

[Sam Spade]

My opinion on what Coleman is doing:

1) Helping his future career: no matter what he does (visiting professor, lobbyist, future candidate), he'll be better off the more artificial controversy injected into his loss.  Of course, the national and state GOP definitely wants as little legitimacy inserted into Franken's victory as possible.

2) He has nothing to lose. 

You never help your *political* career by challenging an election, Lunar.

[Lunar]

We'll see.  I mean, he obviously should not cross the line and whine too much.  I think contesting this election -to a point- could make him a stronger candidate to challenge Franken in 6 years should Franken have a weak 1st term.

Meh, doesn't matter, I doubt he has a future electoral political career

[emailking]

The real question is whether the 40 votes exist or not.  As pointed out in The Hill piece, Franken will not get a certificate of election if Coleman challenges the election in court.

So all one has to do to prevent certification is to challenge in court?

Here is the law: https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=204C.40&year=2008

Dumb.