Indictment-O-Rama 2: The Lying Game

[America Needs R'hllor]

Much to liberals’ chagrin, there are no thought police. Whatever factors brought each individual voter to their decision on for whom to vote cannot be legally or morally quantified. Bring me some evidence that Russians physically tampered with our voting machines to affect the results, and I’ll listen to what you have to say. But as far as this claim that Russians insidiously infiltrated American minds and changed the political zeitgeist, I have to call balderdash on that one.

Nobody said all that. They interfered with it by hacking the DNC and the Clinton campaign and spreading propaganda. Stop acting like people are calling for the election to be nullified or something.

Alleging that some shady crap went down within the 2016 election (which has happened in every election going back to 1796) is a different allegation than claiming that Trump used Russian influence to attain his 270th electoral vote.

I also find it interesting that people are fine with delegitimizing 2016 when arguing about Russia, but the same people also argue that Hillary was the “real winner” and only lost on a technicality. I guess the NPV was perfectly legitimate, but the EC was hacked? Lol

Nice strawman. No one other than #Resistance hacks believes that Hillary is the real winner- she lost fair and square, according to the system. Whether that system is flawed is another question.

It doesn't change the fact in the slightest that Russia interferred in the election and Trump is siding with Putin over the United States of America on this issue.

[Thank you for being a friend...]

That's why he's #TreasonousTrump.  He loves the KGB and hates the CIA.

He's so far up the ass of Dictator Putin that you can't even see him anymore.

[Wiz in Wis]

Any Dem who doesn't attack their opponent's NRA donations as "Russian-money" is a damn fool. The NRA really stepped in it here... they look like either willing traitors, or useful idiots.

[America Needs R'hllor]

If you don't know what it means, then you don't want to. And yes, 17 different intelligence agencies are just blowing this out of proportion to create hysteria.

The mantra about "17 different intelligence agencies" reminds me of the "57 varieties" labels on Heinz ketchup. No one knows what it means, but it sticks in your memory and occasionally someone mentions it as if it held some kind of sacred importance.

Certainly of much higher importance than the word of a dictator who, among many other lies, put false charges on political opponents to disqualify them from elections? Or do you disagree?

There's a reason why I never even considered voting for Jill Stein. I have no patience for justifications of figures like Putin, Erdogan, Assad, and so on and it's extremely frustrating that so many posters are incapable of discussing the subject without distracting with accusations about which "side" you are on.

That said, I'm amused by the obsession with mentioning the number of intelligence agencies - seventeen, as if the results are so much more credible and impressive than if there were merely fifteen or sixteen. The line has a way of sticking in your head, I guess, but I consider it a tell that whoever is on about it isn't really thinking through the mechanics of what happened. It's the sort of mindless detail that only sounds impressive if you're not really thinking about what you're saying.

I disagree. The American intelligence agencies are very much independent of each other and often reluctant even to cooperate. If only the CIA and the FBI made this deduction, it'd be much less credible than all of these different and independent agencies reaching the same conclusion. In the end, it is "taking sides"- the word of many different professionals and officials VS. the word of Vladimir Putin.

I commend you for not supporting Stein for this, in my opinion, perfect reason.

[KingSweden]

Much to liberals’ chagrin, there are no thought police. Whatever factors brought each individual voter to their decision on for whom to vote cannot be legally or morally quantified. Bring me some evidence that Russians physically tampered with our voting machines to affect the results, and I’ll listen to what you have to say. But as far as this claim that Russians insidiously infiltrated American minds and changed the political zeitgeist, I have to call balderdash on that one.

Nobody said all that. They interfered with it by hacking the DNC and the Clinton campaign and spreading propaganda. Stop acting like people are calling for the election to be nullified or something.

Alleging that some shady crap went down within the 2016 election (which has happened in every election going back to 1796) is a different allegation than claiming that Trump used Russian influence to attain his 270th electoral vote.

I also find it interesting that people are fine with delegitimizing 2016 when arguing about Russia, but the same people also argue that Hillary was the “real winner” and only lost on a technicality. I guess the NPV was perfectly legitimate, but the EC was hacked? Lol

Nice strawman. No one other than #Resistance hacks believes that Hillary is the real winner- she lost fair and square, according to the system. Whether that system is flawed is another question.

It doesn't change the fact in the slightest that Russia interferred in the election and Trump is siding with Putin over the United States of America on this issue.

^^^

[Sumner 1868]

After seventeen years of "war on terror" with no end in sight I will not and can not accept kick-starting another Cold War. Peace not war.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Lol, Trump said he won the electoral college 306-223, he won the allocation 306-232, and won the final tally 304-227.

[Beet]

For the last time, there are not seventeen intelligence agencies. If there were, that would be rather inefficient, wouldn't it? What country would want to split its intelligence into seventeen different groups? There are four agencies - the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and the DNI that were involved in coming up with who hacked the Democrats. But because the DNI technically covers Cabinet Departments like the State Department and Treasury Department, Hillary Clinton used that to falsely claim that "17 agencies" came to the conclusion. For no reason other than it sounded better.

Look, we know what happened. The FBI called the DNC and told them they were hacked. The DNC guy didn't believe it was FBI and did nothing for four months. Someone sent a spear phishing account to John Podesta, and the IT guy for the Clinton campaign told him it was a legitimate email even though there was an obvious bit.ly link inside. I'd say hire better people. You want to start World War III because your IT guy couldn't spot a bit.ly link.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Depends on what you mean by interfere:

If you mean spreading fake news , giving dark money to Get PACS , and spread other types of propaganda then the answer is Yes .

If you mean hacking the voting machines the answer is no .

[twenty42]

Much to liberals’ chagrin, there are no thought police. Whatever factors brought each individual voter to their decision on for whom to vote cannot be legally or morally quantified. Bring me some evidence that Russians physically tampered with our voting machines to affect the results, and I’ll listen to what you have to say. But as far as this claim that Russians insidiously infiltrated American minds and changed the political zeitgeist, I have to call balderdash on that one.

Nobody said all that. They interfered with it by hacking the DNC and the Clinton campaign and spreading propaganda. Stop acting like people are calling for the election to be nullified or something.

Alleging that some shady crap went down within the 2016 election (which has happened in every election going back to 1796) is a different allegation than claiming that Trump used Russian influence to attain his 270th electoral vote.

I also find it interesting that people are fine with delegitimizing 2016 when arguing about Russia, but the same people also argue that Hillary was the “real winner” and only lost on a technicality. I guess the NPV was perfectly legitimate, but the EC was hacked? Lol

Nice strawman. No one other than #Resistance hacks believes that Hillary is the real winner- she lost fair and square, according to the system. Whether that system is flawed is another question.

It doesn't change the fact in the slightest that Russia interferred in the election and Trump is siding with Putin over the United States of America on this issue.

Yeah, I have to disagree with this. Hillary winning the NPV has been a huge go-to point for libs on here for whenever they want to brush off Trump’s presidency. The dichotomy here is that you can’t use the PV/EV split AND Russian interference simultaneously if you are arguing that 2016 was an illegitimate election. The heart of the PV/EV argument is that the election results WERE legitimate, and that Trump is only president because of a broken system. The Russian argument asserts that the election results were ILLEGITIMATE, thus cannot be trusted or be seen as predictive. Each argument undercuts the other.

[NewYorkExpress]

If, and this is a big if, Trump is tried for treason, I hope the Justice Department has the stones to seek the death penalty.

If the Rosenbergs got it, so should Trump.

That of course assumes Trump is in fact committing treason, which we could argue about until the cows come home.

[Panda Express]

I don't know about "treason" but it was, at the very least, a rather pathetic display by Trump. Imagine having this guy as your "champion". Yikes.

[Yellowhammer]

Absolutely not, and the idea that he did is laughable.

[Yellowhammer]

Much to liberals’ chagrin, there are no thought police. Whatever factors brought each individual voter to their decision on for whom to vote cannot be legally or morally quantified. Bring me some evidence that Russians physically tampered with our voting machines to affect the results, and I’ll listen to what you have to say. But as far as this claim that Russians insidiously infiltrated American minds and changed the political zeitgeist, I have to call balderdash on that one.

[Koharu]

I don't know about "treason" but it was, at the very least, a rather pathetic display by Trump. Imagine having this guy as your "champion". Yikes.

This. I don't think a statement on TV holds up to the definition of treason. What he may or may not have done in other places is something for the special investigator to find out.

He's awful, but this is no more than what I expected out of this "summit."

[Nyvin]

Much to liberals’ chagrin, there are no thought police. Whatever factors brought each individual voter to their decision on for whom to vote cannot be legally or morally quantified. Bring me some evidence that Russians physically tampered with our voting machines to affect the results, and I’ll listen to what you have to say. But as far as this claim that Russians insidiously infiltrated American minds and changed the political zeitgeist, I have to call balderdash on that one.

It doesn't matter if Trump colluded with Russia to "win" the election....it matters if Trump Colluded with Russia.

[NewYorkExpress]

Democrats certainly would attempt to impeach Gorsuch (which I would support), but they wouldn't have the votes in the Senate, unless they get at least 70-75 seats by 2022.

[Hammy]

Anyone remember when he and the rest of the right accused Obama of "apologizing" for America? And then he goes to a foreign country and says everything's our fault. Can't say it's treason (I'm no legal scholar obviously) but certainly doesn't look good to any sane observer.

[Hammy]

Unless some evidence is found that the election data itself was hacked into, and that votes were actually deleted/changed (which is highly unlikely to have happened in the first place) nothing happens.

[Reaganfan]

Much to liberals’ chagrin, there are no thought police. Whatever factors brought each individual voter to their decision on for whom to vote cannot be legally or morally quantified. Bring me some evidence that Russians physically tampered with our voting machines to affect the results, and I’ll listen to what you have to say. But as far as this claim that Russians insidiously infiltrated American minds and changed the political zeitgeist, I have to call balderdash on that one.

It doesn't matter if Trump colluded with Russia to "win" the election....it matters if Trump Colluded with Russia.

So should we be at war with England, then? After all, the leader of the Brexit movement Nigel Farage actually came into our country and spoke at a Trump rally. Is that collusion, too?

[Mike Thick]

The affidavit mentions that Butina wrote to the Russian Official (likely Torshin) to say that she attended a political "announcement" in the latter half of 2015 (presumably after June 12th), and also met the candidate who announced their candidacy at said event at the 2015 NRA membership conference in Nashville.

Here are the GOP Presidential candidates who declared their Presidential candidacies after June 12th, 2015, and spoke at the NRA meeting:
 - Donald Trump
 - Rick Santorum
 - Scott Walker
 - Bobby Jindal
 - Ben Carson

[here2view]

Much to liberals’ chagrin, there are no thought police. Whatever factors brought each individual voter to their decision on for whom to vote cannot be legally or morally quantified. Bring me some evidence that Russians physically tampered with our voting machines to affect the results, and I’ll listen to what you have to say. But as far as this claim that Russians insidiously infiltrated American minds and changed the political zeitgeist, I have to call balderdash on that one.

It doesn't matter if Trump colluded with Russia to "win" the election....it matters if Trump Colluded with Russia.

So should we be at war with England, then? After all, the leader of the Brexit movement Nigel Farage actually came into our country and spoke at a Trump rally. Is that collusion, too?

That has absolutely nothing to do with this. That's not even a similar comparison at all.

[Calthrina950]

Democrats certainly would attempt to impeach Gorsuch (which I would support), but they wouldn't have the votes in the Senate, unless they get at least 70-75 seats by 2022.

I wouldn't support a move to impeach Gorsuch. What has he done to warrant impeachment? Federal judges should only be removed if they have demonstrated gross corruption, negligence, or incompetence in office, or if they are facing and/or been convicted of criminal charges.

[krazen1211]

Much to liberals’ chagrin, there are no thought police. Whatever factors brought each individual voter to their decision on for whom to vote cannot be legally or morally quantified. Bring me some evidence that Russians physically tampered with our voting machines to affect the results, and I’ll listen to what you have to say. But as far as this claim that Russians insidiously infiltrated American minds and changed the political zeitgeist, I have to call balderdash on that one.

It doesn't matter if Trump colluded with Russia to "win" the election....it matters if Trump Colluded with Russia.

So should we be at war with England, then? After all, the leader of the Brexit movement Nigel Farage actually came into our country and spoke at a Trump rally. Is that collusion, too?

Barry himself went into the UK and tried to force the UK public into not voting for Brexit.

[Calthrina950]

Absolutely not, and the idea that he did is laughable.