The Blue Avatar silence on impeachment is an embarrassment.

[Joe Republic]

Losing can be a deeply humbling experience.

But it’s better to have embarrassed silence than the alternative; i.e. Trump’s own strategy of dialing up the fountain of crazy.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I’m banned from posting on USGD so...

#FreeSanchez

I think we can interpret the OP as supporting this.  I wonder if he's petitioning for it in the Cave?

[morgankingsley]

I'm sorry that me having a life outside of Atlas where I can't comment on a regular basis besides on subforums that I enjoy is a total embarrassment. I will try to set up at least an hour of Atlas time every single day to talk about subjects that I can't focus on for long periods of time without it getting in the way of my life.

Okay, I know that this was an extremely rude post, and easily my most controversial in a really long time, but please, in the future don't paint all blue avatars not talking about a subject or something as the same people. We are not.

[Skunk]

Who cares about what blue avatars think?

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

I'm opposed to impeachment.

I certainly believe that Donald Trump has not always avoided the appearance of impropriety, but there is also no smoking gun on the order of Nixon in 1974.  There isn't and it's fiction at this point to say that there is.

Now if people wish to make the case that Trump is a scumbag and should be voted out of office, that's another matter.  There's certainly a case to be made to not vote for Trump, and it's a case that is more likely to succeed than not in 2020.  The case to not vote for Trump has merit, but the case for impeachment is underwhelming if one believes impeachment to be the sort of thing that is only to be used in extreme circumstances.

Richard Nixon was the only President for who impeachment was justified.  Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton were impeached for purely political reasons, and it is, IMO, the same with Trump.

[Wazza [INACTIVE]]

WuUuUeEeEeEeEeAaAaAhH??? WhErE aRe ThE bLuUuU (dabba de dabba da) aVaTaRs???

[OSR stands with Israel]

I'm opposed to impeachment.

I certainly believe that Donald Trump has not always avoided the appearance of impropriety, but there is also no smoking gun on the order of Nixon in 1974.  There isn't and it's fiction at this point to say that there is.

Now if people wish to make the case that Trump is a scumbag and should be voted out of office, that's another matter.  There's certainly a case to be made to not vote for Trump, and it's a case that is more likely to succeed than not in 2020.  The case to not vote for Trump has merit, but the case for impeachment is underwhelming if one believes impeachment to be the sort of thing that is only to be used in extreme circumstances.

Richard Nixon was the only President for who impeachment was justified.  Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton were impeached for purely political reasons, and it is, IMO, the same with Trump.

Asking a foreign nation to investigate and dig up dirt on a political opponent is illegal though and we know he did that . This isn’t Russia 2.0, since in that case we had no idea of his actions throughout the process while this time we do know about his actions

[RI]

I will support impeachment if and only if evidence beyond a reasonable doubt emerges that Trump committed a "high crime or misdemeanor" while in office. Misconstrued anonymous hearsay which has basically been refuted is not such evidence, and I don't support a partisan fishing expedition by Congress on the basis of such. If strong evidence exists, it will undoubtedly come out given how much the entire executive branch appears itching to take down Trump. Until then, this is all meaningless partisan theater which doesn't warrant further response.

[fhtagn]

Losing can be a deeply humbling experience.

But it’s better to have embarrassed silence than the alternative; i.e. Trump’s own strategy of dialing up the fountain of crazy.

It's a shame the left didn't get that message after 2016.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Misconstrued anonymous hearsay which has basically been refuted is not such evidence, and I don't support a partisan fishing expedition by Congress on the basis of such.

Yo, man! Trump's own transcript confirms the whistleblower's complaint.
Try to update your talking points next time. 

[Joe Republic]

Losing can be a deeply humbling experience.

But it’s better to have embarrassed silence than the alternative; i.e. Trump’s own strategy of dialing up the fountain of crazy.

It's a shame the left didn't get that message after 2016.

I did up to a point; I took an extended break from all political discussion immediately after the election as I was too disgusted and ashamed to have to acknowledge the braying coming from the fascists openly celebrating their leader’s victory.

But our side having won the popular vote, the 2018 midterms, and Trump’s consistently terrible approvals since day one show that he never truly 'won' to begin with.

[Xing]

While I'd like to think that some are taking and "wait and see" approach, I think some are simply not being as vocal about still standing behind Trump, kind of like how many were somewhat silent after Pussygate (very different circumstances, I know.)

[John Dule]

I know I'm not a blue av, but I'm right-wing, and I've been saying for over a year that Trump needs to be held accountable for his theft of American taxpayer dollars through his hotels. If you don't care about this then I never want to hear you even say the word "corruption" in relation to another politician ever again. Any "fiscally responsible" Republicans standing with Trump despite this should be ashamed.

Ukraine is just icing on the cake.

[Frodo]

I know I'm not a blue av, but I'm right-wing, and I've been saying for over a year that Trump needs to be held accountable for his theft of American taxpayer dollars through his hotels. If you don't care about this then I never want to hear you even say the word "corruption" in relation to another politician ever again. Any "fiscally responsible" Republicans standing with Trump despite this should be ashamed.

Ukraine is just icing on the cake.

When I mentioned the same thing, a few red avatars said (and I imagine there are a great number more who silently agree with them) that it would be too complicated for the average American to understand, and might distract from Ukraine.  

It shouldn't be that hard to explain to people.  If you can't do it, step aside and let someone else do the talking. 

[John Dule]

I know I'm not a blue av, but I'm right-wing, and I've been saying for over a year that Trump needs to be held accountable for his theft of American taxpayer dollars through his hotels. If you don't care about this then I never want to hear you even say the word "corruption" in relation to another politician ever again. Any "fiscally responsible" Republicans standing with Trump despite this should be ashamed.

Ukraine is just icing on the cake.

When I mentioned the same thing, a few red avatars said (and I imagine there are a great number more who silently agree with them) that it would be too complicated for the average American to understand, and might distract from Ukraine.  

It shouldn't be that hard to explain to people.  If you can't do it, step aside and let someone else do the talking. 

I think it's actually easier to explain. Why bother going through this convoluted labyrinth of international intrigue, pee-pee tapes, dossiers, collusion, and hearsay when you can just straight-up point to blatant evidence that Trump is defrauding the American taxpayer and is profiting off of his position?

[Joe Republic]

I know I'm not a blue av, but I'm right-wing, and I've been saying for over a year that Trump needs to be held accountable for his theft of American taxpayer dollars through his hotels. If you don't care about this then I never want to hear you even say the word "corruption" in relation to another politician ever again. Any "fiscally responsible" Republicans standing with Trump despite this should be ashamed.

Ukraine is just icing on the cake.

When I mentioned the same thing, a few red avatars said (and I imagine there are a great number more who silently agree with them) that it would be too complicated for the average American to understand, and might distract from Ukraine. 

It shouldn't be that hard to explain to people.  If you can't do it, step aside and let someone else do the talking. 

I think it's actually easier to explain. Why bother going through this convoluted labyrinth of international intrigue, pee-pee tapes, dossiers, collusion, and hearsay when you can just straight-up point to blatant evidence that Trump is defrauding the American taxpayer and is profiting off of his position?

It's true; it is amazing how little traction this clear-cut unconstitutional corruption has gotten.  Though the esoteric word "emoluments" doesn't help.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Better to let people think you are an idiot than open your mouth and prove it.

[Frodo]

I know I'm not a blue av, but I'm right-wing, and I've been saying for over a year that Trump needs to be held accountable for his theft of American taxpayer dollars through his hotels. If you don't care about this then I never want to hear you even say the word "corruption" in relation to another politician ever again. Any "fiscally responsible" Republicans standing with Trump despite this should be ashamed.

Ukraine is just icing on the cake.

When I mentioned the same thing, a few red avatars said (and I imagine there are a great number more who silently agree with them) that it would be too complicated for the average American to understand, and might distract from Ukraine.  

It shouldn't be that hard to explain to people.  If you can't do it, step aside and let someone else do the talking.  

I think it's actually easier to explain. Why bother going through this convoluted labyrinth of international intrigue, pee-pee tapes, dossiers, collusion, and hearsay when you can just straight-up point to blatant evidence that Trump is defrauding the American taxpayer and is profiting off of his position?

It is actually pretty important to point out that Trump is placing his own base partisan considerations ahead of that of the country's national interest, as we have seen exemplified in this Ukraine scandal. That he is putting himself -rather than America- first.  Nixon did the same when he interfered with peace negotiations between the United States and North Vietnam in 1968.   

[OSR stands with Israel]

If Trump is not guilty then evidence showing that will definitely come out at the Senate Trial. If Trump was not guilty, then at the trial  his team can show to the Senate and the world how he is innocent which then will actually giving him a polling bump.

But since Trump did what he is alleged of , he does not want it to go to trial because he knows if it goes to trial , things will only get worse from here for him. Trump hasn't even really denied the Ukraine allegations , let alone showed an evidence why he is not guilty.

[Antonio the Sixth]

...I'm sorry, but this thread is silly. Atlas posters are not public officials, they don't have a duty to be honest and transparent to their constituents. If they feel enough personal shame about supporting an obvious crook that they'd rather disengage from politics than defend him, good for them, it means there's still a part of them that harbors doubts. And if that part is nourished and encouraged enough, they might be rescued from the cult. I'd much rather that than they continue spouting blatantly dishonest nonsense.

[morgankingsley]

...I'm sorry, but this thread is silly.

I agree with that sentence

[McNukes™ #NYCMMWasAHero]

I just haven't been on Atlas very much for the last few weeks due to homework and tests tbh.

...I'm sorry, but this thread is silly. Atlas posters are not public officials, they don't have a duty to be honest and transparent to their constituents. If they feel enough personal shame about supporting an obvious crook that they'd rather disengage from politics than defend him, good for them, it means there's still a part of them that harbors doubts. And if that part is nourished and encouraged enough, they might be rescued from the cult. I'd much rather that than they continue spouting blatantly dishonest nonsense.

No one is in a "cult" and I have no doubt that Trump did nothing wrong after reading his phone call.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

I know I'm not a blue av, but I'm right-wing, and I've been saying for over a year that Trump needs to be held accountable for his theft of American taxpayer dollars through his hotels. If you don't care about this then I never want to hear you even say the word "corruption" in relation to another politician ever again. Any "fiscally responsible" Republicans standing with Trump despite this should be ashamed.

Ukraine is just icing on the cake.

When I mentioned the same thing, a few red avatars said (and I imagine there are a great number more who silently agree with them) that it would be too complicated for the average American to understand, and might distract from Ukraine.  

It shouldn't be that hard to explain to people.  If you can't do it, step aside and let someone else do the talking. 

I think it's actually easier to explain. Why bother going through this convoluted labyrinth of international intrigue, pee-pee tapes, dossiers, collusion, and hearsay when you can just straight-up point to blatant evidence that Trump is defrauding the American taxpayer and is profiting off of his position?

That's not an argument for impeachment.

That's an argument to not vote for him for reelection a mere 13 months from now.  That's a reason to vote for one of his primary challengers. 

There are many good reasons for liberals and for conservatives to not vote for Trump (although those reasons may differ amongst each group).  There are not good reasons to attempt to impeach and remove him; the failure of a President to avoid the appearance of impropriety does not rise to the level of High Crimes and Misdemeanors. 

Trump was elected in a series of free and fair elections, by the system that we have had in place to elect Presidents for beyond my entire lifetime.  That he did not win the popular vote does not make him any less legitimate a President, and he did not engage in illegal activities to alter vote counts.  In addition, I have watched EVERY narrative to date against Trump fall apart upon close scrutiny.  Now maybe the next one will succeed, and I'll alter my position, but I'm not counting on this, based on the track record of narratives that have proven faulty in the end. 

One thing I hope is that we end the idea that "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" can mean "whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers [them] to be at a moment in history".  That definition was thrown out by then Minority Leader Gerald Ford in his attempts to impeach Justice William O. Douglas, and was, IMO, the low point of Ford's generally honorable career.  Because if it fails to mean that, what happens when President Warren does something that folks look askance at?  Or President Booker?  Will Biden be under investigation if he goes all the way in 2020?  Will it happen even before the Electoral College meets?  Will Biden's Administration be four (4) years of Ukraine, Hunter Biden, and Burisma?

If you hate Trump, vote him out.  If you believe him less than ethical, vote him out.  It's not impossible; indeed, it's even likely.  But it's long overdue that America put the Impeachment Genie back in the bottle and let it out only when we're honestly talking about Treason, Bribery, and other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.  I've not endorsed Trump for re-election, and I may not, but I certainly oppose this impeachment, and I view it as partisan politics at taxpayers' expense.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I know I'm not a blue av, but I'm right-wing, and I've been saying for over a year that Trump needs to be held accountable for his theft of American taxpayer dollars through his hotels. If you don't care about this then I never want to hear you even say the word "corruption" in relation to another politician ever again. Any "fiscally responsible" Republicans standing with Trump despite this should be ashamed.

Ukraine is just icing on the cake.

When I mentioned the same thing, a few red avatars said (and I imagine there are a great number more who silently agree with them) that it would be too complicated for the average American to understand, and might distract from Ukraine.  

It shouldn't be that hard to explain to people.  If you can't do it, step aside and let someone else do the talking. 

I think it's actually easier to explain. Why bother going through this convoluted labyrinth of international intrigue, pee-pee tapes, dossiers, collusion, and hearsay when you can just straight-up point to blatant evidence that Trump is defrauding the American taxpayer and is profiting off of his position?

That's not an argument for impeachment.

That's an argument to not vote for him for reelection a mere 13 months from now.  That's a reason to vote for one of his primary challengers. 

There are many good reasons for liberals and for conservatives to not vote for Trump (although those reasons may differ amongst each group).  There are not good reasons to attempt to impeach and remove him; the failure of a President to avoid the appearance of impropriety does not rise to the level of High Crimes and Misdemeanors. 

Trump was elected in a series of free and fair elections, by the system that we have had in place to elect Presidents for beyond my entire lifetime.  That he did not win the popular vote does not make him any less legitimate a President, and he did not engage in illegal activities to alter vote counts.  In addition, I have watched EVERY narrative to date against Trump fall apart upon close scrutiny.  Now maybe the next one will succeed, and I'll alter my position, but I'm not counting on this, based on the track record of narratives that have proven faulty in the end. 

One thing I hope is that we end the idea that "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" can mean "whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers [them] to be at a moment in history".  That definition was thrown out by then Minority Leader Gerald Ford in his attempts to impeach Justice William O. Douglas, and was, IMO, the low point of Ford's generally honorable career.  Because if it fails to mean that, what happens when President Warren does something that folks look askance at?  Or President Booker?  Will Biden be under investigation if he goes all the way in 2020?  Will it happen even before the Electoral College meets?  Will Biden's Administration be four (4) years of Ukraine, Hunter Biden, and Burisma?

If you hate Trump, vote him out.  If you believe him less than ethical, vote him out.  It's not impossible; indeed, it's even likely.  But it's long overdue that America put the Impeachment Genie back in the bottle and let it out only when we're honestly talking about Treason, Bribery, and other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.  I've not endorsed Trump for re-election, and I may not, but I certainly oppose this impeachment, and I view it as partisan politics at taxpayers' expense.

But Trump asking a foreign nation to investigate his political opponents is illegal . He admitted on live tv that he broke the law so it’s not just about disliking Trump anymore as I disliked Trump but opposed impeaching him before the Ukraine scandal .

[Xing]

I know I'm not a blue av, but I'm right-wing, and I've been saying for over a year that Trump needs to be held accountable for his theft of American taxpayer dollars through his hotels. If you don't care about this then I never want to hear you even say the word "corruption" in relation to another politician ever again. Any "fiscally responsible" Republicans standing with Trump despite this should be ashamed.

Ukraine is just icing on the cake.

When I mentioned the same thing, a few red avatars said (and I imagine there are a great number more who silently agree with them) that it would be too complicated for the average American to understand, and might distract from Ukraine.  

It shouldn't be that hard to explain to people.  If you can't do it, step aside and let someone else do the talking. 

I think it's actually easier to explain. Why bother going through this convoluted labyrinth of international intrigue, pee-pee tapes, dossiers, collusion, and hearsay when you can just straight-up point to blatant evidence that Trump is defrauding the American taxpayer and is profiting off of his position?

That's not an argument for impeachment.

That's an argument to not vote for him for reelection a mere 13 months from now.  That's a reason to vote for one of his primary challengers. 

There are many good reasons for liberals and for conservatives to not vote for Trump (although those reasons may differ amongst each group).  There are not good reasons to attempt to impeach and remove him; the failure of a President to avoid the appearance of impropriety does not rise to the level of High Crimes and Misdemeanors. 

Trump was elected in a series of free and fair elections, by the system that we have had in place to elect Presidents for beyond my entire lifetime.  That he did not win the popular vote does not make him any less legitimate a President, and he did not engage in illegal activities to alter vote counts.  In addition, I have watched EVERY narrative to date against Trump fall apart upon close scrutiny.  Now maybe the next one will succeed, and I'll alter my position, but I'm not counting on this, based on the track record of narratives that have proven faulty in the end. 

One thing I hope is that we end the idea that "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" can mean "whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers [them] to be at a moment in history".  That definition was thrown out by then Minority Leader Gerald Ford in his attempts to impeach Justice William O. Douglas, and was, IMO, the low point of Ford's generally honorable career.  Because if it fails to mean that, what happens when President Warren does something that folks look askance at?  Or President Booker?  Will Biden be under investigation if he goes all the way in 2020?  Will it happen even before the Electoral College meets?  Will Biden's Administration be four (4) years of Ukraine, Hunter Biden, and Burisma?

If you hate Trump, vote him out.  If you believe him less than ethical, vote him out.  It's not impossible; indeed, it's even likely.  But it's long overdue that America put the Impeachment Genie back in the bottle and let it out only when we're honestly talking about Treason, Bribery, and other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.  I've not endorsed Trump for re-election, and I may not, but I certainly oppose this impeachment, and I view it as partisan politics at taxpayers' expense.

But Trump asking a foreign nation to investigate his political opponents is illegal . He admitted on live tv that he broke the law so it’s not just about disliking Trump anymore as I disliked Trump but opposed impeaching him before the Ukraine scandal .

I agree with Old School Republican here, Fuzzy. If we were merely talking about a policy disagreement or dislike of Trump in general, then yes, a vote in an election would be the way to express that. However, we can't leave it up to an election to decide whether or not the president is above the law. The purpose of checks and balances is not to throw all judgment to the voters, who can't even have access to every relevant piece of information. It's to make sure that the executive is not abusing his/her power. And when you have a president who asks a foreign government to investigate his political opponent, and then publicly invites another foreign power to intervene, you have a volatile situation which must be addressed immediately, and not put on the ballot more than a year later.