UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Ofc there's incidents in all parties; but there's a clear difference between isolated, and stupid incidents such as the one's you linked to, and Labour's entire cluster in dealing with the issue.

If we're being really blunt about it, it's specifically the Leader and some of the people around him. At an institutional level things are dealt with better than they used to be - and better than in certain other parties: consider the case of David 'The Jews' Ward here for a moment - but so long as the Leader continues to act like Ted Crilly that won't matter.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I must say I don't think anti-Semitism in the UK is skewed among high earners - check out certain Premier League fixtures involving Spurs

Given the demographics of the people who regularly attend Premier League matches these days that would actually count as an argument in the opposite direction. I'm always blackly amused whenever football fans are prosecuted for hooliganism and it emerges they're middle managers living in well-to-do suburbs, as is nearly always the case these days...

[EPG]

Well, it has always been like that. Or maybe not for the brief period around 1990 when football fans discovered raving. I dunno. I am glad Ward was eventually prohibited from standing as a Lib Dem candidate in Bradford, though that took an excruciatingly long time. It now seems that similar people have the run of the place in Labour.

[Gustaf]

I still don't get how the portrait is anti semitic. They looked like gilded age guys, none of them obviously Jewish. Such a silly controversy.

No, if you think that you're either too uneducated on the issue to comment on it or you're as anti-semitic as Corbyn. Just stop.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

for posters actually from the united kingdom - which of the various stories swirling around are actually prominent right now and which are just popular here on atlas atm?

[vileplume]

for posters actually from the united kingdom - which of the various stories swirling around are actually prominent right now and which are just popular here on atlas atm?

Well this Corbyn anti-antisemitism thing has certainly been the hot topic of conversation in the media the last few days but whether the electorate outside the Westminster bubble cares or not is another matter entirely... Obviously Jewish voters will care but they're a pretty small minority that already votes very heavily Tory nowadays anyway. The most that has probably happened is it perhaps ensures greater Jewish turnout come May which gives the Tories a bit better chance at holding the London borough of Barnet (the marginal of Childs Hill has a fairly large Jewish population as does does Hale to a lesser extent). It could also tip a few marginal wards with large Jewish communities in Greater Manchester to the Tories e.g. Sedgley in Bury, Kersal in Salford. But other than that all that will happen is the Tories will say I told you so about Corbyn/Labour whilst Labour voters will either make excuses or ignore it and find some other reason to carry on voting Labour and everything will carry on as it was before.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This is a very good piece on the Mural mess and what has followed from a very firm Left perspective (to say the least).

[EPG]

Ah, those innocent days of mid-January 2018. Remember back then? Baggy trousers, dirty shirts, jumpers for goalposts. People thought Facebook was as harmless as tobacco. And Christine Shawcroft, the Momentum director, was appointed chair of Labour’s party disputes panel by her fellow NEC members, the day after three seats were filled by pro-Corbyn candidates. It wasn't even a very right-wing predecessor who got sacked.

Anyway, two months later Shawcroft has quit. She is not herself accused of any anti-Semitic statements, but it is reported that she lobbied for the return of a suspended activist. The claim is that he shared a Facebook post putatively denying the Holocaust, photoshopped to read, in an puerile manner reminiscent of elements of this forum, "Muh Holocaust". In the current climate, this was not going to go well for her among the rest of the party.

(Sorry if this doesn't count as something "real British people" care about.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've made my views on Shawcroft clear before on here, I think. If not I certainly have elsewhere. My only surprise is that this happened after months rather than weeks.

[vileplume]

Ah, those innocent days of mid-January 2018. Remember back then? Baggy trousers, dirty shirts, jumpers for goalposts. People thought Facebook was as harmless as tobacco. And Christine Shawcroft, the Momentum director, was appointed chair of Labour’s party disputes panel by her fellow NEC members, the day after three seats were filled by pro-Corbyn candidates. It wasn't even a very right-wing predecessor who got sacked.

Anyway, two months later Shawcroft has quit. She is not herself accused of any anti-Semitic statements, but it is reported that she lobbied for the return of a suspended activist. The claim is that he shared a Facebook post putatively denying the Holocaust, photoshopped to read, in an puerile manner reminiscent of elements of this forum, "Muh Holocaust". In the current climate, this was not going to go well for her among the rest of the party.

(Sorry if this doesn't count as something "real British people" care about.)

They should definitely care but my point is they won't care enough for it to change anything or weaken Corbyn's grip on the Labour party. Depressingly enough all that will happen is there will be a few suspensions and/or resignations, Labour will hold another sham enquiry which will conclude the problem is down to a few bad apples and the party at large is not at fault, Tory voters will carry on voting Tory, Labour voters will carry on voting Labour and we will be exactly where we were before this scandal broke. I hope I'm wrong but my opinion of the British electorate and their ability to care about any issue they don't perceive as affecting them directly is not overly high.

[GoTfan]

sigh this is truly depressing ;/

Which newspaper is this from exactly?

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

@epg - so your post and Audrey's indicates that this is indeed the "main story" of the moment as opposed to like, the Skripal Affair. Thanks.

@Al that is indeed a good take and in line with a lot my thoughts on the outright and quasi/crypto antisemitism in the American left.* Thanks.

*It's much more the latter than the former in  America, and the American left's historical roots and strong current presence in the Jewish community makes it all the more confusing.

[Blair]

I've made my views on Shawcroft clear before on here, I think. If not I certainly have elsewhere. My only surprise is that this happened after months rather than weeks.

I'm being too lazy to google, but wasn't Shawcroft involved in Luthur Raham and the whole fiasco of Tower Hamlets?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've made my views on Shawcroft clear before on here, I think. If not I certainly have elsewhere. My only surprise is that this happened after months rather than weeks.

I'm being too lazy to google, but wasn't Shawcroft involved in Luthur Raham and the whole fiasco of Tower Hamlets?

Yes, Rahman was an old mate of hers from back when she was a councillor in the borough. She actually had her Party membership suspended (though not for long) for campaigning for Rahman after he was expelled. She was widely expected to be selected for Nottingham South in 2010 - it is historically a very Left CLP, the retiring incumbent was Campaign Groups stalwart Alan Simpson, it was her home CLP technically, she was a sitting NEC member etc - but was beaten out by Lilian Greenwood. Which may be considered indicative of certain things...

[Antonio the Sixth]

...this is bad.

[Blair]

We're back to the banter era of shadow ministers being able to effectively do, or say what they want.

I know it's awful to look at everything from a pseudo-strategist point of view, but Corbyn really is sh**t at handling stuff that isn't on a campaign. It's going to be a long 4 years until 2022, and we can expect this sort of fracas every 3-4 months.

And yes Christine Shawcroft should be kicked off the NEC; the argument that since she's on the NEC the leader can't kick her off is a legalistic one. If she'd said the N word, or said something extremely homophobic she'd be kicked off in seconds.

[Leftbehind]

And yes Christine Shawcroft should be kicked off the NEC; the argument that since she's on the NEC the leader can't kick her off is a legalistic one. If she'd said the N word, or said something extremely homophobic she'd be kicked off in seconds.

She defended someone she believed to be innocent - once the facts were made plain she apologised and resigned her post. I don't see why she has to resign - she never knowingly defended someone who had denied the holocaust. A stupid mistake on her part - yes - and no doubt driven by a belief the Israel critics on the Left were being purged, but I don't think that's in the same league as personally issuing racist remarks?

As for the list, not a great many surprises there - anti-Corbyn/Blairite rump - many of whom were signing letters more or less condemning their leader over its handling of the Russian poisoning before this happened. But if the soft left get on board, and we're plunging back into civil war, we may as well get the threshold completely lowered and mandatory reselection brought in. I can help get rid of my MP who's forever on these lists.

[EPG]

It's just funny how the leader's and his friends' stupid mistakes are always made in a direction that supports Holocaust denial debate (Livingstone) or their inclusion in the party (Shawcroft).

[Blair]

And yes Christine Shawcroft should be kicked off the NEC; the argument that since she's on the NEC the leader can't kick her off is a legalistic one. If she'd said the N word, or said something extremely homophobic she'd be kicked off in seconds.

She defended someone she believed to be innocent - once the facts were made plain she apologised and resigned her post. I don't see why she has to resign - she never knowingly defended someone who had denied the holocaust. A stupid mistake on her part - yes - and no doubt driven by a belief the Israel critics on the Left were being purged, but I don't think that's in the same league as personally issuing racist remarks?

Well no, that's only partly the story. As her own Facebook post shows, after seeing the post her recommendation was to give the individual 'antisemitism' training. She thought that someone who said the holocaust was a hoax should just be given 'training'; when they should be kicked out of the party for that.

Along with the fact she was given the job in the first place after the left kicked Anne Black off as Chair, it just shows what happens when you put people with awful judgement into key positions (something all factions do admittedly)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Shawcroft has resigned her seat on the NEC.

[Leftbehind]

Well no, that's only partly the story. As her own Facebook post shows, after seeing the post her recommendation was to give the individual 'antisemitism' training. She thought that someone who said the holocaust was a hoax should just be given 'training'; when they should be kicked out of the party for that.

It's par for the course that councillors/MPs are directed to training / courses - or expelled if they refuse to do so - they aren't normally just disowned (see Bradford West MP, recent candidate for the by-election in Thanet DC etc). The person in question has denied he posted it to deny the holocaust, but that clearly doesn't wash so he's been instructed to be educated on the matter.

Along with the fact she was given the job in the first place after the left kicked Anne Black off as Chair, it just shows what happens when you put people with awful judgement into key positions (something all factions do admittedly)

That more or less makes my point, doesn't it? I agree there's more to it - the Right aren't comfortable with the Left having a majority on the NEC (hence their outrage at Black being left off the Left slate) so they've agitated for Shawcroft to go and have now achieved their aim.

It's just funny how the leader's and his friends' stupid mistakes are always made in a direction that supports Holocaust denial debate (Livingstone) or their inclusion in the party (Shawcroft).

Except Shawcroft has categorically said she didn't knowingly support a holocaust denier. Dunno what you're on about regarding Livingstone.

[brucejoel99]

In related news, due to Shawcroft's resignation, she's being replaced by Eddie Izzard, so congrats to Eddie for finally managing to gain membership of Labour's NEC. Long overdue imo, he seems like a rather good person to be on the NEC. A principled & sensible fellow. Let's hope he puts some sense into the others.

[Silent Hunter]

Wouldn't be surprised if he ran for Mayor at some point.

[Blair]

I agree there's more to it - the Right aren't comfortable with the Left having a majority on the NEC (hence their outrage at Black being left off the Left slate) so they've agitated for Shawcroft to go and have now achieved their aim.

I'm usually happy to play the factional game, and don't see a point in denying it when it clearly exists but this isn't about the right 'gaining an NEC seat'... the seats are up for re-election this year, there's already a clear Corbynite majority of more than plus one (so this seat 'gain' makes no difference)

I don't think someone leaked it cause they were part of some masterplan to gain an NEC seat.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

Seems like there's a difference between 1) groups in which anti-semitic content is posted by members that nobody likes and gets moderated when the mods get around to it and 2) anti-semitic groups. And I really don't trust the British press to distinguish the two.