UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[Leftbehind]

The logic that's being employed would have everyone on here being tarred by its worst posts. Never join a political group/forum basically? They're just trying to throw as much sh**t prior to the locals, in the hope that Labour underperform and heat gets put on Corbyn to go.

It tells you everything you need to know that liberals are happily reposting Guido sh**te, like.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

If any non-Muon atlasfolk get into politics, I can't wait for the press to descend on them en masse for stuff that Krazen's said.

[EPG]

It tells you everything you need to know that liberals are happily reposting Guido sh**te, like.

It tells you everything you need to know that Momentum see the anti-Semitism story as a pro-Israeli conspiracy to suppress "Israel critics". Do you really see no problem with your leader and his friends like Christine and Ken on the Jewish question, at all?

[Horus]

Seems like there's a difference between 1) groups in which anti-semitic content is posted by members that nobody likes and gets moderated when the mods get around to it and 2) anti-semitic groups. And I really don't trust the British press to distinguish the two.

[Leftbehind]

It tells you everything you need to know that liberals are happily reposting Guido sh**te, like.

It tells you everything you need to know that Momentum see the anti-Semitism story as a pro-Israeli conspiracy to suppress "Israel critics". Do you really see no problem with your leader and his friends like Christine and Ken on the Jewish question, at all?

It goes far beyond Momentum - polling suggests the vast majority of Labour membership see this anti-semitism hysteria as press-made. It's an issue, of course, but no greater issue than other forms of racism within British society and suggestions it's concentrated within Labour are not borne out by evidence - despite how desperately hard you liberals/Tories try to give that impression. Charges against Shawcroft for anti-semitism are laughably weak - she clearly came unstuck through seeing everything as an attempt to purge the Left.

[ChinaSoc]

The social imperialists are off to a rude awakening right now with the Corbyn smear campaign.

They haven't realize the west doesn't need them anymore, they can now go full fascist. Socdems will never win again and this clearly proves it (plus their annihilation in the rest of Europe), only tolerable social imperialists are neoliberal warmongers like Tony Blair, Tories will govern the UK forever.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

The social imperialists are off to a rude awakening right now with the Corbyn smear campaign.

They haven't realize the west doesn't need them anymore, they can now go full fascist. Socdems will never win again and this clearly proves it (plus their annihilation in the rest of Europe), only tolerable social imperialists are neoliberal warmongers like Tony Blair, Tories will govern the UK forever.

OMG whoever is behind this sock account is brilliant.

[Leftbehind]

The social imperialists are off to a rude awakening right now with the Corbyn smear campaign.

They haven't realize the west doesn't need them anymore, they can now go full fascist. Socdems will never win again and this clearly proves it (plus their annihilation in the rest of Europe), only tolerable social imperialists are neoliberal warmongers like Tony Blair, Tories will govern the UK forever.

OMG whoever is behind this sock account is brilliant.

Seems like we've picked up the People's Republic of America signal.

[ChinaSoc]

The social imperialists are off to a rude awakening right now with the Corbyn smear campaign.

They haven't realize the west doesn't need them anymore, they can now go full fascist. Socdems will never win again and this clearly proves it (plus their annihilation in the rest of Europe), only tolerable social imperialists are neoliberal warmongers like Tony Blair, Tories will govern the UK forever.

OMG whoever is behind this sock account is brilliant.

You think Bernie Sanders is socialist but I'm the sock. Fine.

Only telling the truth, LAB will never be allowed to get back to power if Corbyn is their leader, Europe's ruling doesn't need socdems anymore since the USSR is gone. Colonialism to build welfare states is in the past. Now they are not interested, neoliberal era means no welfare state allowed by the ruling class.

[Blair]

On the topic of facebook accounts I use to be in a 'moderate' Labour one which grew out an Owen Smith 2016 campaign group; it was relatively good natured at first (and helped me get an internship) but quickly descended into a sh**tshow.

I left in April 2016, but I've heard it basically descended into a cesspit of anti-Trans hysteria, creepy comments by 40+ men, and general bile (as all facebook groups are) I'm sure you could go through the posts and find enough to show Guido.

[EPG]

Yet more smears from biased media Clinton libruls. These non-Israel critics will not replace us.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

Oops, sorry, that was actually Momentum saying don't dismiss it as a pro-Jewish conspiracy...

[mvd10]

How do young people feel about this? As far as I know they voted 70% Labour in 2017 and they're probably extremely loyal to Corbyn. Ironically young people seem to be least tolerant to racism in general (atleast when Muslims are targeted) so I wonder how they feel about this.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Secret recording reveals Jeremy Corbyn ally Jon Lansman (Labour NEC member and Momentum chair) saying anti-Semitism complaints are 'opportunistic'

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/exclusive-jeremy-corbyn-ally-jon-lansman-recorded-saying-antisemitism-complaints-are-opportunistic-a3804536.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is a pretty gross misrepresentation of what Lansman said. I suspect he may end up asking them for an apology...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Anyway, Jewdas are an anarchist collective with a very strong penchant for caustic satire. Perhaps accepting the invite was not the greatest PR move under the circumstances given that they (obviously!) have less than great relations with the more consciously respectable institutions/organisations of British Jewry (see the quotes above), but this is very far from the GOTCHA story the media seemed to be assuming last night: Jewish antisemitism is a thing that exists, but this group is really not an example of that phenomenon, whatever you think of consciously provocative anarchist collectives.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Now whatever you think of provocative anarchist collectives, this is pretty funny...

[Silent Hunter]

Anyway, Jewdas are an anarchist collective with a very strong penchant for caustic satire. Perhaps accepting the invite was not the greatest PR move under the circumstances given that they (obviously!) have less than great relations with the more consciously respectable institutions/organisations of British Jewry (see the quotes above), but this is very far from the GOTCHA story the media seemed to be assuming last night: Jewish antisemitism is a thing that exists, but this group is really not an example of that phenomenon, whatever you think of consciously provocative anarchist collectives.

Agree. It's bad timing and judgment from someone who should know better by now.

[warandwar]

I am overjoyed that Corbyn attended this Seder. Jewdas is great, and if I lived in London, I would have been in attendance. I just read the Haggadah, it was pretty similar to the one I made for a seder I hosted on Friday night!
I lol'd at that one goy MP who criticized Corbyn for attending the Jewdas "seber"...

[ViaActiva]

Posting John Rentoul tweets (let alone his actual work) should result in a permaban for the first offense and actual jail time for the second. I'm not joking.

Mind explaining which points of the tweets you disagree with?

[GoTfan]

Anyway, Jewdas are an anarchist collective with a very strong penchant for caustic satire. Perhaps accepting the invite was not the greatest PR move under the circumstances given that they (obviously!) have less than great relations with the more consciously respectable institutions/organisations of British Jewry (see the quotes above), but this is very far from the GOTCHA story the media seemed to be assuming last night: Jewish antisemitism is a thing that exists, but this group is really not an example of that phenomenon, whatever you think of consciously provocative anarchist collectives.

Agree. It's bad timing and judgment from someone who should know better by now.

It's worth mentioning that they were also calling for Ken Livingstone to be expelled.

[cp]

for posters actually from the united kingdom - which of the various stories swirling around are actually prominent right now and which are just popular here on atlas atm?

Fittingly, if you want an idea of how salient this topic is in the UK right now, the very nature of the discussion in this thread is a pretty good analogue: vitriolic, exclusively the concern of established partisans, and ultimately irrelevant to the details of the electoral contest we all know is just around the corner.

[cp]

... case in point.

[mileslunn]

Tories back in the lead again so while not time to panic I do think Corbyn has probably taken the party as far as it can go.  Someone from the soft left could probably pick up the extra 3 to 5 points Labour needs whereas low 40s is Corbyn's ceiling.  Around 1994, the British Tories faced similar troubles, but were trailing by 15-20 points in the polls rather than slightly ahead thus I believe, even though some disagree, more evidence that Labour would be doing better with a more centrist leader (maybe not as centrist as Tony Blair, but similar to traditional social democratic party leaders in continental Europe not loony left like Corbyn).  If Labour cannot pull ahead even under ideal conditions, then they probably will have a tough time ever doing so under Corbyn unless the Tories spectacularly implode or Brexit goes horribly awry.

[ViaActiva]

I think I agree with that Mileslunn, though the near future looks very uncertain with the Tory Party still split down the middle on our future relationship with Europe and the potential for Brexiteers to become frustrated if the transition period (as it likely will) needs to be extended into the mid 2020s once we get into the complexities of an FTA. May’s leadership is uncertain and she could be replaced in 2019/2020 by a Brexiteer who is popular with members but divisive in the country.

On the flip side the Tories may receive quite a boost in April 2019 given that the general consensus in the country on both sides is  ‘stop arguing and get on with Brexit’. This may restore May’s reputation somewhat and shift the focus back to issues of credibility and competence in running the country, although as above the issue is not going to die away.

But I agree that Labour would have a better chance under a less divisive leader. 2017 was really the perfect storm for Corbyn - no one expected him to be in government and it was really a referendum on May’s terrible and hubristic campaign. Someone less divisive to swing voters like Angela Rayner maybe.

[EPG]

I totally get the argument that Corbyn reaches out to some voters on a different frequency, one that many Labour-considerers don't hear. Looking beyond the main patterns of the 2017 election, it's evident that something happened to assist Labour among former Green voters, students, some non-voters, and probably also voters leaning toward the Lib Dems, who had been polling in low double digits. That something is most credibly labelled Corbyn, I believe, though in some areas it was certainly Remainer rage.

The risk is that Corbyn leaves and the kids don't care as much about bland but almost equally left-wing successor, who then has to do twice as well among the normies who see Corbyn as a bit off.

[mileslunn]

I totally get the argument that Corbyn reaches out to some voters on a different frequency, one that many Labour-considerers don't hear. Looking beyond the main patterns of the 2017 election, it's evident that something happened to assist Labour among former Green voters, students, some non-voters, and probably also voters leaning toward the Lib Dems, who had been polling in low double digits. That something is most credibly labelled Corbyn, I believe, though in some areas it was certainly Remainer rage.

The risk is that Corbyn leaves and the kids don't care as much about bland but almost equally left-wing successor, who then has to do twice as well among the normies who see Corbyn as a bit off.

I would argue passion and charisma more than where one stands on the spectrum matter most with younger voters.  Justin Trudeau in Canada and Barack Obama in the US brought out the young in droves, but did so without scaring off moderate and/or older voters so Labour just needs to find their own version of Trudeau or Obama.  Sadiq Khan or perhaps maybe Andy Burnham are ones to look at.  Could also be some from some of the newer members of the Labour Party who are soft left.