Scottish Independence

[Serenity Now]

Oh, honestly. Is it really that hard to edit a Wikipedia flag?

If that's going to be the 'UK' flag then I'd like a dragon on it.

[minionofmidas]

Scotland is about size of Finland and economically like Norway not Iceland. Independent Scotland is necessery step before UN with 300 member states. The interesting question is whether some of Brittish oversea terriories are given to Scotland.

Maybe Saint Kilda?

[Middle-aged Europe]

For a more or less realistic (as far as I could tell ) near-future vision of an independent Scotland, I recommend Charles Stross' novel Halting State.

Set in a few years from now, it features an economically prospering "Republic of Scotland" which had joined the EU and the Euro.

(The author is English himself, but lives in Edinburgh if you want to know).

[minionofmidas]

"Joined" the EU? They're in already.

[Middle-aged Europe]

"Joined" the EU? They're in already.

Does the territory of a EU member automatically become a EU member state itself when seceding from its original home country??

Anyway, the exact procedure wasn't discussed in full length in the novel. It was the year 2017 or something and the independent Scotland had the Euro as a currency for a couple years now.

[afleitch]

"Joined" the EU? They're in already.

Does the territory of a EU member automatically become a EU member state itself when seceding from its original home country??

Under a strict interpretation yes. Even if Scotland has to apply for membership, membership would probably be immediate.

And the rest of Britain's fear is of course...this


£££££££££

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Going to run out soon though; or at least soon enough for it not to be the sort of automatic bringer of prosperity within the context of independence that it might have been in the 1970s*. Not that I really believe in the doomsday scenarios (a lot of them are based on assumptions even more outdated than 'It's Scotland's Oil!'... and no matter what happens Scotland won't be another Newfoundland), but a lot of the economic arguments for Scottish independence read horribly like boosterism.

*Of course in such a scenario it might have been mismanaged anyway. As it was (though by the British government) in real life; Norway is a wonderfully positive counter-example, of course.

[You kip if you want to...]

"In Scotland 29% of people support Independence, 58% of people were opposed"
"Compare this with England and Wales. English and Welsh respondents are pretty evenly split on Scottish independence – 41% would support Scotland becoming independent, 40% would oppose it"

LOL

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/3570

[joevsimp]

All of the Americans will vote 'yes' because they mistakenly believe that Scotland is a land of Romance. Most of the British posters will vote 'no' because they mistakenly believe that Scotland is a land of bleakness and Irn Bru.

I live next to a power station and drink gallons of the stuff I'm practically Rob Roy

[afleitch]

"In Scotland 29% of people support Independence, 58% of people were opposed"
"Compare this with England and Wales. English and Welsh respondents are pretty evenly split on Scottish independence – 41% would support Scotland becoming independent, 40% would oppose it"

LOL

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/3570

The thing is, from much of the press (except in their Scottish editions of course ) I, as cool headed as I think I am, am starting to feel we are not wanted in the union by some. Even the irony of someone from the North East of England griping about 'subsidising' the Scots has started to become more of an irritation.

There are economic reasons for Scottish independence; it is also increasingly looking like the only way (barring complete fiscal autonomy) conservatism can thrive in Scotland too.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

All of the Americans will vote 'yes' because they mistakenly believe that Scotland is a land of Romance. Most of the British posters will vote 'no' because they mistakenly believe that Scotland is a land of bleakness and Irn Bru.

I vote yes because I'm a geographically non-bound separatist. I think all state/provincial/regional governments should be free!

[afleitch]

Some recent developments.

Earlier this week, the Scottish Secretary Michael Moore indicated that Scotland would, in what is quite possibly a world first need two referendums. One on independence itself and a second on whether to accept a negotiated seperation settlement. This was rejected by the UK Cabinet who insisted that one referendum would be required. The Scottish Government has given it's clearest indication of what will be asked. Mr Salmond has confirmed that they may not be 'restricted' by a one question referendum offering the Scottish people the option of independence, 'devolution max' or the status quo.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

The previously posted flag looked a bit off, so I made my own from this.

I couldn't get the image tags to work, so here's a link.

[TheGlobalizer]

I said no, largely on the premise that England (London) provides a lot of same-state economic access and heft.

The devolution/autonomy was good for Scotland, however.

[Keystone Phil]

Absolutely. I've never been a fan of a union of countries. Let all three be totally independent (though I know some or all of the other three probably have little desire for that. Then there's the one that would possibly become part of another republic).

And before certain people (or, really, one person) start saying, "Let Padania be Padania" out of spite, I'll just say that my position isn't held out of spite and splitting up Italy is different than splitting up the United Kingdom.

On a somewhat related note, I was playing a game with some friends last night and the subject of Scotland was brought up. The object of the game was to correctly guess whether a statement was true or false. The statement: "St. Patrick was originally from Britain, kidnapped and brought to Ireland." I, of course, said that it was true. Naturally, a heavy dose of stupidity followed, with people spouting the urban legend that St. Patrick was actually Italian. I chose to ignore that. Then the other participants got angry when I explained the answer. I said that it was true because St. Patrick was actually from Scotland. I was shouted down and told that Scotland is not part of Britain. "Yes, it's part of the island of Britain. It's part of the United Kingdom." One friend tried to back me up by saying, "It's part of the United Kingdom" as if to say that it isn't part of Britain. Trying to then explain that it's on the island of Britain didn't do me any good either. "Nobody in Scotland would say that they're British." At that point, I wasn't even going to try to get into the complexities of the matter, not that anyone would have let me anyway. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And before certain people (or, really, one person) start saying, "Let Padania be Padania" out of spite, I'll just say that my position isn't held out of spite and splitting up Italy is different than splitting up the United Kingdom

Yes, that's true. Italy is newer and much more artificial.

[Keystone Phil]

And before certain people (or, really, one person) start saying, "Let Padania be Padania" out of spite, I'll just say that my position isn't held out of spite and splitting up Italy is different than splitting up the United Kingdom

Yes, that's true. Italy is newer and much more artificial.

I knew it was coming but three minutes? Record timing, Al! Don't worry. Wales won't be fed to the wolves. You'll still be able to mooch off of London for the rest of your life.

[The Mikado]

Considering how young Italian is as a national language, how strongly it's been trying to bear down over regional dialects, etc...

Seriously, Phil, can you say that Sardinia is a natural part of Italy?

[Keystone Phil]

Considering how young Italian is as a national language, how strongly it's been trying to bear down over regional dialects, etc...

Seriously, Phil, can you say that Sardinia is a natural part of Italy?

About as natural to Italy as whatever cave Al is from to Kensington, London.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I knew it was coming but three minutes? Record timing, Al! Don't worry. Wales won't be fed to the wolves. You'll still be able to mooch off of London for the rest of your life.

Mindless abuse aside, how exactly can you argue that Italy is one and indivisible but that the UK is artificial and ought to be split up while retaining a straight face throughout?

[Keystone Phil]

I knew it was coming but three minutes? Record timing, Al! Don't worry. Wales won't be fed to the wolves. You'll still be able to mooch off of London for the rest of your life.

Mindless abuse aside, how exactly can you argue that Italy is one and indivisible but that the UK is artificial and ought to be split up while retaining a straight face throughout?

The cultural and historical reasons for both examples aside, I don't understand why Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland have the distinction of being countries yet don't actually act like countries except in weird, random areas (like sports...sometimes). I just don't get the point of having a union of nations under another national umbrella.

Then there's the issue of actually wanting to be independent. Scotland, at the very least, has a sizable amount of citizens that want independence. "Padania" - which is totally made up - isn't home to serious secessionist sentiments and even when the feelings were the most serious, secessionists were still overwhelmingly outnumbered.

[patrick1]

A couple of random questions:  What are the proposed military arrangements in an independent Scottish state?   Do you think there will be a slight uptick in British patriotism as a result of the 2012 Olympics- however fleeting or illusory....?

[bgwah]

Scottish independence seems pretty silly.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Scottish independence seems pretty silly.

Yeah I just don't see the point.

Considering how young Italian is as a national language, how strongly it's been trying to bear down over regional dialects, etc...

Seriously, Phil, can you say that Sardinia is a natural part of Italy?

About as natural to Italy as whatever cave Al is from to Kensington, London.

They probably have as much in common as Philadelphia does with Fulton County, PA. Or what does NYC have in common with Wyoming County, NY? And those are even the same states, try comparing San Francisco to Loup County, Nebraska.

[Keystone Phil]

They probably have as much in common as Philadelphia does with Fulton County, PA. Or what does NYC have in common with Wyoming County, NY? And those are even the same states, try comparing San Francisco to Loup County, Nebraska.

Even though you disagree with it, that's my point. That doesn't mean I'm advocating for all of these areas to be independent of each other; it's just highlighting the question: why have the distinction of Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland as countries if they can't act as countries?