Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 21, 2014, 07:19:11 pm
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Don't forget to get your 2013 Gubernatorial Endorsements and Predictions in!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  U.S. General Discussion (Moderators: True Federalist, Former Moderate, Badger)
| | |-+  I think Republicans are succeeding at scaring people over health care again.
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] Print
Author Topic: I think Republicans are succeeding at scaring people over health care again.  (Read 2864 times)
opebo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 47607


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2009, 03:32:28 pm »
Ignore

Well it isn't working very well. My dad was diagnosed with a cancer at 84 that after a week of research I knew was 100% fatal, and after surgery and all the rest, it cost the state 150K in 1991 dollars.  He was a medicare. That is insane.

Um, you propose that spending $150,000 on a citizen's cancer treatment is a lot of money?  Dude, that is nothing.
Logged

The essence of democracy at its purest is a lynch mob

anvi
anvikshiki
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3877
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -1.22

View Profile
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2009, 04:08:19 pm »
Ignore

They need to sell the accurate fact that nationalized medicine will squash medical innovation. The uninsured are a small segment of the population. Why should we destroy the healthcare of the vast majority of Americans to cover 10-15 million Americans?

In the interest of accurate facts, the number of uninsured Americans is close to 50 million, not 10-15 million.  50 million people is 15% of the population, and 15% is not a small segment of the population.  When you have that many people out of the coverage pool, it raises costs for the insured, both because there are fewer people paying premiums so the generic premium costs are higher, and because when one of those 50 million people goes to an emergency room for care, the hospital has to care for them, but then passes the uncompensated cost onto taxpayers.  It would be cheaper for everyone if far more people were covered.

Secondly, it is really a myth that medical innovations in the United States are due to private industry alone.  National Institute of Heath grants are crucial for laboratories to conduct their research.  And pharmaceutical companies get massive tax credits, expensing of research expenditures and even tax breaks for direct-to-consumer advertising.  I agree that these companies are highly innovative, but they get incredible help from the government.  If you don't believe me, just look at how much the industry spends on campaign contributions to members of tax writing committees in the congress every year, and you'll see how much these industries depend on government favor.  Or, go to your nearest research university lab and ask them how they finance their cancer and spinal cord research.  The government of this country deserves lots of credit for supporting innovation in the medical industry.
Logged
Democratic Hawk
LucysBeau
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 14670
United Kingdom


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2009, 05:31:35 pm »
Ignore

I'd like to know what the Republicans are pushing for healthcare reform?

The party of no is fresh out of ideas.

The party of no has ideas, if you consider "ideas" to be a freeze in spending save on defense and veteran affairs, extending the Bush tax cuts, more tax cuts and even more tax cuts
Logged

Moderate Liberal Populist Smiley [Personal 45%/Economic 42%] / Defense 'Hawk'

Registered in Georgia for Fantasy Politics
??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31302
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2009, 06:10:30 pm »
Ignore

They need to sell the accurate fact that nationalized medicine will squash medical innovation. The uninsured are a small segment of the population. Why should we destroy the healthcare of the vast majority of Americans to cover 10-15 million Americans?

In the interest of accurate facts, the number of uninsured Americans is close to 50 million


Proven myth. Try again.
Logged
??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31302
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2009, 06:13:26 pm »
Ignore

http://newsbusters.org/stories/40-million-uninsured-myth
Logged
??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31302
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2009, 06:15:15 pm »
Ignore

http://www.gopusanj.com/wordpress/?p=7645
Logged
??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31302
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2009, 06:16:18 pm »
Ignore

http://mentalhiccups.blogspot.com/2009/06/47-million-uninsured-myth.html
Logged
anvi
anvikshiki
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3877
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -1.22

View Profile
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2009, 06:34:07 pm »
Ignore

Yes, about 7 million people in the country who are uninsured are not American citizens, but they are legal residents (that's how they end up getting counted in the census), and legal residents are legally eligible to be covered.  If you insist on not counting them (which I think would be wrong unless you are going to take a stand against legal immigration), that leaves 40 million American citizens outside of coverage, which is more than 13% of the population. 

Yes, a pretty large segment of the uninsured population have household incomes of over $50,000 a year.  But how many people are in those households?   And how many of that population, more than likely having two adults with full-time jobs, lack health insurance because their employers dropped their coverage, or because their coverage was dropped after a half year because of limitations on catastrophic care?  A pretty significant portion, I would guess, because I would not as a parent purposefully fail to purchase medical insurance for my children, because not doing so would be much more expensive for me, not to mention grossly irresponsible to my children.

And the fact remains that, when anyone from these population segments goes to an emergency room, the costs are passed on to the taxpayers and the insured.





Logged
King
intermoderate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26008
United States


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2009, 10:23:34 pm »
Ignore

I'll remember this, StatesRights, if the unemployment rate gets out of control.

"50 million Americans out of work... but 1 million are Mexicans so it doesn't matter."
Logged

??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31302
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2009, 10:29:21 pm »
Ignore

I'll remember this, StatesRights, if the unemployment rate gets out of control.

"50 million Americans out of work... but 1 million are Mexicans so it doesn't matter."

IF it gets out of control? 16.4% unemployment is certainly out of control in my book. And why the hell should I have to pay for some non-citizen to get free healthcare?
Logged
King
intermoderate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26008
United States


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2009, 10:35:54 pm »
Ignore

I'll remember this, StatesRights, if the unemployment rate gets out of control.

"50 million Americans out of work... but 1 million are Mexicans so it doesn't matter."

IF it gets out of control? 16.4% unemployment is certainly out of control in my book. And why the hell should I have to pay for some non-citizen to get free healthcare?

You already do pay for a non-citizen's healthcare.  No non-citizen goes to a doctor's office.  They go to the emergency room.

Unfortunately for nationalists (and I mean that in the pure sense not the racist version of the term), the hippocratic oath doesn't recognize political borders.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 10:37:51 pm by indepoderate »Logged

??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31302
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2009, 10:38:32 pm »
Ignore

I'll remember this, StatesRights, if the unemployment rate gets out of control.

"50 million Americans out of work... but 1 million are Mexicans so it doesn't matter."

IF it gets out of control? 16.4% unemployment is certainly out of control in my book. And why the hell should I have to pay for some non-citizen to get free healthcare?

You already do pay for a non-citizen's healthcare.  No non-citizen goes to a doctor's office.  They go to the emergency room.

I'm fine with covering an emergency situation but to get the same benefits as a nationalized health care? Hell no.
Logged
MSG
MSG@LUC
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 58
United States


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2009, 10:40:28 pm »
Ignore

The opposition is always gonna make the majority's proposal seem more dire than it could possible be.  Its good politics and in this country usually the only way for the opposition to gain traction.  However, in my opinion this debate has gone past the normal asinine discourse into some hellish area in which no one wins in especially the uninsured.  I'm currently watching the daily show and listening to the questions asked of the president it just boggles the mind.  It amazes me that people with any intellect what so ever could possible imagine that someone would propose the legislation they way the have interpreted it. Most of us on here are able to actually read legislation and dissected it so we can actually perceive what its penitential will be.  However, that is not the case for the vast majority of Americans, many of which would not want take the time to read it anyways.  These people then go to sources for whom they trust to decipher it for them.  That is why I think this debate has gotten so deplorable, the sources the conservative members of this group have turned to have mutated the various proposals so greatly as to shut down all debate.  

We need insurance reform i don't think anyone would argue against that point.  So, who is helped when people on the right make claims about the Democrats wanting death.  You here republicans go on the floor and claims this, then their puppets in the media continue this line of "reasoning" on their respective outlets.  Who is helped when you paint one side as killers.  I mean seriously to go on the radio or TV and say the people would have to choose how they would like to die.  Equally as bad saying that people of medicare age would be "put out to pasture." I don't know or care to find out which conservative pundit said this however these were questions asked of obama and these people clearly got these questions from some source.  So once again i would ask who does the rhetoric help and if you believe this stuff well seriously don't have children heck you probably couldn't afford to anyways as your premiums are probably sky rocketing as it is.  Too mean but seriously this stuff is pissing me off.

We can find common ground in this debate around things like out state health care providers and group negations for medication and medical products.   Its not much but it is a start, so instead of painting each other, the left does spout bad rhetoric on this as well though not as deplorable as the right, as in human or killers.  If we can sit down and rationally discussing things we could actually make a difference.  But, maybe that just what i believe right now cause my pipe is half empty.  JK
Logged
King
intermoderate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26008
United States


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2009, 10:43:44 pm »
Ignore

I'll remember this, StatesRights, if the unemployment rate gets out of control.

"50 million Americans out of work... but 1 million are Mexicans so it doesn't matter."

IF it gets out of control? 16.4% unemployment is certainly out of control in my book. And why the hell should I have to pay for some non-citizen to get free healthcare?

You already do pay for a non-citizen's healthcare.  No non-citizen goes to a doctor's office.  They go to the emergency room.

I'm fine with covering an emergency situation but to get the same benefits as a nationalized health care? Hell no.

Problem is that emergency room treatment isn't always an emergency situations.

I can't tell you how many times I've been to the hospital, walked in the emergency rooms, and have seen Mexican women with children who appear to only have simple colds waiting in the emergency room.

We are paying for these people regardless.


And a thing Republicans seem to be leaving out of this: this isn't free healthcare.  This is cheaper healthcare.  These non-citizens are still going to have to pay money to receive it.  And if this plan is cheaper than the private plans, the private plans costs go down which means you end up paying less.  Maybe not less tax dollars, but less overall.

Logged

incredibly specific types of post-punk music
BRTD
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 72748
United Kingdom


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2009, 10:47:51 pm »
Ignore

If you're not in the top 10%, you won't be paying more in taxes anyway.
Logged




01/05/2004-01/10/2014
Alexander Hamilton
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9331
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.58, S: -5.13

View Profile
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2009, 11:26:02 pm »
Ignore

The Facebook status updates from people I know on it disturb me.

Check this out: "John Doe thinks that this health care plan sucks. Sorry I voted for some dummy who could possibly put people I love out of work!" wtf, seriously?

Anyway, maybe it's just me. This sucks though, it'd be nice if my 53-year-old father could get some health coverage.

If he's in New York as well, ship him to Canada, where health care is so great that you'll die before you get to see the doctor.
Logged

people suck
King
intermoderate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26008
United States


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2009, 11:38:41 pm »
Ignore

The Facebook status updates from people I know on it disturb me.

Check this out: "John Doe thinks that this health care plan sucks. Sorry I voted for some dummy who could possibly put people I love out of work!" wtf, seriously?

Anyway, maybe it's just me. This sucks though, it'd be nice if my 53-year-old father could get some health coverage.

If he's in New York as well, ship him to Canada, where health care is so great that you'll die before you get to see the doctor.

Proof?
Logged

MSG
MSG@LUC
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 58
United States


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2009, 11:44:19 pm »
Ignore


If he's in New York as well, ship him to Canada, where health care is so great that you'll die before you get to see the doctor.

This statement is the exact thing that make this debate so pathetic.  I am guessing that you(a. hamiliton) have never discussed health care with a Canadian or taken the time to research the statement you just made.  But, you heard some one say something like this or this exact line and suddenly is it gospel.  You are dumb if you actually believe that people are dying constantly due to "long lines" and "rationing" in Canada.  If you would actually take the time to do any research on this you would find out how asinine that statement was.  I don't really mean to attack you but seriously man come on.  You can't believe that politicians all over the world and in our country would purposely pass legislation that killed people unnecessarily. Plus, say this was a consequence of legislation that had passed they would not over turn it for what would have to be a political point or ideological purism.  I feel you don't but that is pretty much what you are implying by making that dumbfounded statement.  So lets debate fact and not conjecture.  As I said previously no one can arguing that we need health care reform so lets have a real debate without these stupid assertions.  No offense to you personally just to the statement that you made because to attack ones opponent personally is to end debate right then and there.  
Logged
Marokai Besieged
Marokai Blue
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16894
United States


View Profile
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2009, 01:00:26 am »
Ignore

Just reading over States' sources out of curiosity. I found them amusing.







As for the substance of the articles, they just elicit a big "so?" So what if some of the 47 million uninsured are in a certain income group or aren't citizens? They're still legal residents, and they're still uninsured. Nothing in those links dispelled any "myth," they just knitpicked.
Logged

Deliverance
Angry_Weasel
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12820


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2009, 01:11:37 am »
Ignore

Hey, at least the Republican party didn't call us homosexuals this time around....though they called us baby and old people killers.
Logged


"Making Congress Squeal!"- Sen. Joni Ernst (R-IA)
the result is a sense that we were told to attend a lavish dinner party that was going to be wonderful and by the time we got there, all the lobster and steak had been eaten, a fight had broken out, the police had been called and all that was left was warm beer and chips.
Lief
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 34416


View Profile
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2009, 02:01:06 am »
Ignore

I hope States realizes that legal non-citizens pay taxes just like he does...

And I hope he also realizes that the bill won't be raising his taxes, since he's not a rich.
Logged



Thank you, Mr. President.
ChrisJG777
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 928
United Kingdom


Political Matrix
E: -5.42, S: -8.00

View Profile
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2009, 04:54:52 am »
Ignore

The Facebook status updates from people I know on it disturb me.

Check this out: "John Doe thinks that this health care plan sucks. Sorry I voted for some dummy who could possibly put people I love out of work!" wtf, seriously?

Anyway, maybe it's just me. This sucks though, it'd be nice if my 53-year-old father could get some health coverage.

If he's in New York as well, ship him to Canada, where health care is so great that you'll die before you get to see the doctor.

Proof?

He has none.  In fact there is hardly any proof that the healthcare systems of Canada or any of the European countries for that matter, are failures.  I've never gotten why people like him are so against the less well off being healthy, because that's the impression I'm getting right now.  Roll Eyes
Logged

Political Matrix scores

This space for rent.
This space also for rent.
This space not for rent.
This space possibly up for rent.
This space for rent only on months ending in the letter "Y".
Sbane
sbane
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13612


View Profile
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2009, 06:06:34 am »
Ignore

I'll remember this, StatesRights, if the unemployment rate gets out of control.

"50 million Americans out of work... but 1 million are Mexicans so it doesn't matter."

IF it gets out of control? 16.4% unemployment is certainly out of control in my book. And why the hell should I have to pay for some non-citizen to get free healthcare?

You already do pay for a non-citizen's healthcare.  No non-citizen goes to a doctor's office.  They go to the emergency room.

I'm fine with covering an emergency situation but to get the same benefits as a nationalized health care? Hell no.

A tax paying resident shouldn't get the same benefits as everyone else? Wow.

Also from a cost perspective your little plan is pretty dumb. Emergency care is the most expensive type of health care out there. It would be much cheaper if we gave them access to basic preventative care instead of treating them on their death bed.
Logged
anvi
anvikshiki
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3877
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -1.22

View Profile
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2009, 06:01:39 pm »
Ignore

He has none.  In fact there is hardly any proof that the healthcare systems of Canada or any of the European countries for that matter, are failures.  I've never gotten why people like him are so against the less well off being healthy, because that's the impression I'm getting right now.  Roll Eyes

I join you in your bafflement.  Other developed nations spend half of what the U.S. does on health care both in absolute terms and in relative GDP, and have longer life expectancies, lower infant mortality rates and a number of other measures, while their populations are in polls much more satisfied with health care in their countries than Americans are.  So, some Americans look at everybody else, see that others are outperforming it, and then accuse everyone else of failure.  It's about as smart as watching a baseball game where team A beats team B by a score of 8-4 and saying: "wow, that team A really can't play."

I'm also baffled as to why some in this country want large segments of the population walking around uninsured and ill.  That wish defies both compassion and self-interest.  It defies compassion for obvious reasons.  It defies self-interest too, since it means that everyone will pay higher insurance premiums both for themselves and their workers, that larger percentages of their tax dollars will be spent on addressing the problem, that the workforce will be less productive because of increased rates of illness in the worker's family, and that consumers will be spending more and more money on health care costs and will therefore buy less of other goods and services.

The point: those who do not support some form of health care reform in this country are willfully self-destructive. 
Logged
incredibly specific types of post-punk music
BRTD
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 72748
United Kingdom


View Profile
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2009, 10:16:14 pm »
Ignore

I hope States realizes that legal non-citizens pay taxes just like he does...

That's something often forgotten. Also that that pay Social Security as well that they likely won't ever get to use.
Logged




01/05/2004-01/10/2014
Pages: 1 2 [3] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines