Israel general discussion

[America Needs R'hllor]

Don't like the usage of the term "martyr" but I agree with most of DavidB's post.

Elor Azaria killed a terrorist, something that benefits Israel and society as a whole. However, he did violate military protocol and I believe he should be out of the military regardless of what the verdict was. Military protocol is important in almost every country, regardless of what type of governmental system it is under.

But think on it from this perspective- in the end of WW2, the German soldiers and high commanders all hoped to fall into the hands of the Americans, not the Soviets. Why? Because the Americans treated their captives in a humane manner, even if they were Nazis. Is there a doubt that this terrorist was'nt nearly as bad as the Nazi high commanders? And yet, the Americans didn't execute them on the battlefield because it went against their values. Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

[DavidB.]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

[Comrade Funk]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Sounds like a theocracy

[America Needs R'hllor]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Basing a country's laws and values on a system conceived by people 3000 years ago doesn't sound very healthy. The human society advanced a lot since then in values and morals, and there's no reason the people of the book shouldn't be civilized. In fact, the people of the book should strive to be more civilized than most.

[DavidB.]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Basing a country's laws and values on a system conceived by people 3000 years ago doesn't sound very healthy. The human society advanced a lot since then in values and morals, and there's no reason the people of the book shouldn't be civilized. In fact, the people of the book should strive to be more civilized than most.

I find Torah to be somewhat more convincing than the fact that it's the current year, but to each their own.

[DC Al Fine]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Sounds like a theocracy

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Basing a country's laws and values on a system conceived by people 3000 years ago doesn't sound very healthy. The human society advanced a lot since then in values and morals, and there's no reason the people of the book shouldn't be civilized. In fact, the people of the book should strive to be more civilized than most.

Your game is weak. DavidB hits the nail on the head here. It's like some people forget how to argue when their opponent rejects a 'liberal' premise.

[danny]

The guy that was shot was an enemy that found his death after trying to kill people himself. I have no problem his death and don't think any injustice was done here. Having said that, executions shouldn't be done by soldiers acting on their own, they should be done by the state. Shooting someone without authority has its consequences.

[DavidB.]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Sounds like a theocracy

I'm not saying all of Israel's laws should be 100% identical to Jewish law. That's going to happen when Mashiach comes, but we're not ready for that yet. What I'm saying is that in principle, Torah, Jewish law, and the reasonings on which those laws are based form the best starting point for creating Israeli laws. We shouldn't aim to mirror the American system, or the British system (which we unfortunately inherited; it's fine for the Brits, but not necessarily for us), or the Soviet system. We should aim to be a Jewish state.

The guy that was shot was an enemy that found his death after trying to kill people himself. I have no problem his death and don't think any injustice was done here. Having said that, executions shouldn't be done by soldiers acting on their own, they should be done by the state. Shooting someone without authority has its consequences.

A voice of reason. Thank you. And thank you, DC.

[SATW]

The guy that was shot was an enemy that found his death after trying to kill people himself. I have no problem his death and don't think any injustice was done here. Having said that, executions shouldn't be done by soldiers acting on their own, they should be done by the state. Shooting someone without authority has its consequences.

This is what I was trying to say in my post but couldn't articulate it as well. Thank you, danny.

Also, @Comrade Funk: Right, because Israel is really in danger of being a theocracy As powerful as the Rabbinate is, you seem to forget that Tel Aviv is as progressive and tikkun olamish as one can get.

[SATW]

Don't like the usage of the term "martyr" but I agree with most of DavidB's post.

Elor Azaria killed a terrorist, something that benefits Israel and society as a whole. However, he did violate military protocol and I believe he should be out of the military regardless of what the verdict was. Military protocol is important in almost every country, regardless of what type of governmental system it is under.

But think on it from this perspective- in the end of WW2, the German soldiers and high commanders all hoped to fall into the hands of the Americans, not the Soviets. Why? Because the Americans treated their captives in a humane manner, even if they were Nazis. Is there a doubt that this terrorist was'nt nearly as bad as the Nazi high commanders? And yet, the Americans didn't execute them on the battlefield because it went against their values. Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

Eh, irrelevant analogy because America has let our own troops off on more controversial breaches of military ethics then Israel has (again, look at the Allen West situation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_West_(politician)#Iraq_interrogation_incident).

I think the West situation did more damage then the Azaria situation, but in both cases, the military went on a witch hunt to appear PC and "european." Thankfully, the U.S. military still has some self-respect for itself and West was just asked to exit the military with his dignity in tact.

Another situation, where a U.S. military personnel engaged in controversial behavior:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/29/world/middleeast/28cnd-sniper.html

In the first situation, I think it Sandoval was rightfully acquitted, but the military was right to investigate the situation and, in fact, this situation was worse then the one Azaria put himself in.

In the second situation, I think Sandoval was innocent, but Vela was clearly guilty. IDK what happened to Hensley or whether or not he was innocent or guilty.

But, this is how a military investigation is supposed to go. Not how Ya'alon and his ilk wanted it to go.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Nice way of deflecting the point. (Same with SunriseAroundTheWorld with his whataboutery in the post just before this one.)  Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).

By the way, I don't think a pardon is warranted here, but a murder charge would have been excessive (and impossible to prove absent some evidence of intent to kill a Palestinian on his part even before the attack happened that prompted him into unjust vengeance).  From what I know of the case, I think probation and/or time served combined with a complete prohibition on him ever even holding a gun again since he has clearly shown himself unable to handle the responsibility, would probably be sufficient.

[DavidB.]

Nice way of deflecting the point. Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).

Has nothing to do with deflecting his point and everything with rejecting it. I don't care for your and Parrotguy's Western view on morality regarding war and peace. That's the entire point of this disagreement. I also don't think the idea that the U.S. was oh-so just whereas the Soviets were simply being vengeful should be taken seriously.

Personally, I think a pardon is more than warranted, followed by an official government-initiated ceremony on the Temple Mount to celebrate his freedom with the people.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Nice way of deflecting the point. Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).

Has nothing to do with deflecting his point and everything with rejecting it. I don't care for your and Parrotguy's Western view on morality regarding war and peace. That's the entire point of this disagreement. I also don't think the idea that the U.S. was oh-so just whereas the Soviets were simply being vengeful should be taken seriously.

Personally, I think a pardon is more than warranted, followed by an official government-initiated ceremony on the Temple Mount to celebrate his freedom with the people.

Actually, if you'd go back and read your Tanakh, especially Isaiah and Amos, I think you'd see I'm applying a Biblical view on morality. The God I see in there is one that wants people to pursue justice and leave vengeance to him to mete out.  But maybe you won't see it. Maybe you'll prove just as deaf to the warning against hubris and pride found in Amos 6:12-14 as Amaziah and Jeroboam were.

[Hnv1]

Nice way of deflecting the point. Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).

Has nothing to do with deflecting his point and everything with rejecting it. I don't care for your and Parrotguy's Western view on morality regarding war and peace. That's the entire point of this disagreement. I also don't think the idea that the U.S. was oh-so just whereas the Soviets were simply being vengeful should be taken seriously.

Personally, I think a pardon is more than warranted, followed by an official government-initiated ceremony on the Temple Mount to celebrate his freedom with the people.

Actually, if you'd go back and read your Tanakh, especially Isaiah and Amos, I think you'd see I'm applying a Biblical view on morality. The God I see in there is one that wants people to pursue justice and leave vengeance to him to mete out.  But maybe you won't see it. Maybe you'll prove just as deaf to the warning against hubris and pride found in Amos 6:12-14 as Amaziah and Jeroboam were.

Actually if you go read a book with thousands of pages written over a span of 300 years by different authors you'll find grounding for whatever you want to believe.

Jewish Law is mainly from the Talmud anyway.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Jewish Law is mainly from the Talmud anyway.

I freely admit to not being well-versed in the Talmud, but what I know of it suggests to me that in there one will find an emphasis on justice over vengeance as well.

Incidentally, the pursuit of justice is why I don't favor a harsh punishment of Elor Azaria for his crime.  In some ways, he's a victim of the occupation as well, since it no doubt shaped his attitude that it was acceptable to wantonly shoot a helpless person because of his past actions.  However, being a victim does not merit being pardoned for a crime, let alone being considered a martyr.  To call him a martyr is to make a mockery of the word, and of justice.

[Hnv1]

LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious

[America Needs R'hllor]

LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious

Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?

[Hnv1]

LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious

Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?

Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

[Intell]

Let's get rid of the concept that the US government and it's actions in foreign policy, are any better than Israel's. I supported the settlement resolution, but the US only defended Israel, because of those dirty soviets, and it's foreign policy on left-wing development in third word, replacing it with fascist regime, for vengeance for not participating in NATO hegemony is awful.

I know this is off-topic, but if we're talking about US foreign policy, is not martyr levels, in Israel or otherwise.

[America Needs R'hllor]

LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious

Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?

Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

Yeah, did not hear it yet too. Just assuming according to each man's motives. I've a feeling that this might be the biggest thing to come out of these investigations.

[Hnv1]

LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious

Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?

Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

Yeah, did not hear it yet too. Just assuming according to each man's motives. I've a feeling that this might be the biggest thing to come out of these investigations.

Regardless, even if full on bribe did not happen there's enough substance for an attempted bribe and attempt is punishable by the common law. They both bribed each other in this scenario as it was a bargain.
And they didn't even begin investigating the submarines affair...

I think we will see a very vulgar Bibi in the coming weeks

[America Needs R'hllor]

LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious

Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?

Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

Yeah, did not hear it yet too. Just assuming according to each man's motives. I've a feeling that this might be the biggest thing to come out of these investigations.

Regardless, even if full on bribe did not happen there's enough substance for an attempted bribe and attempt is punishable by the common law. They both bribed each other in this scenario as it was a bargain.
And they didn't even begin investigating the submarines affair...

I think we will see a very vulgar Bibi in the coming weeks

What scares me more than snap elections is... There was a big terror attack today. Could Bibi pull an Underwood (aka start a war/operation when things go south)? It sounds crazy, but I do hope he's not that cynical.

[Hnv1]

LOL. Netanyahu and his arch nemesis, Yediot's publisher Arnon Moses, were recorded discussing better coverage for Netanyahu there in exchange of Israel Hayom not publishing a weekend edition and maybe shutting down. On top of the corruption case here it also shows Netanyahu's exerts control over Israel Hayom illegally.

The cover of Israel Hayom tomorrow is going to be hilarious

Yeah, it's huge. But doesn't it mean that Moses came to Netanyahu with this offer (since he was the one with something to gain- less competition, while Netanyahu already has a friendly newspaper)? And if so, doesn't it mean that since the Israel Hayom law wasn't passed because of Netanyahu, he did not accept Moses' offer and thus is innocent in this case?

Might be I did not hear the content. But it means Bibi has control of the paper which is against funding laws and also means he lied in court twice

Yeah, did not hear it yet too. Just assuming according to each man's motives. I've a feeling that this might be the biggest thing to come out of these investigations.

Regardless, even if full on bribe did not happen there's enough substance for an attempted bribe and attempt is punishable by the common law. They both bribed each other in this scenario as it was a bargain.
And they didn't even begin investigating the submarines affair...

I think we will see a very vulgar Bibi in the coming weeks

What scares me more than snap elections is... There was a big terror attack today. Could Bibi pull an Underwood (aka start a war/operation when things go south)? It sounds crazy, but I do hope he's not that cynical.

I did not watch house of cards so I don't know the reference. But the 2015 and 2013 Gaza operations had more than a political odor to them, and 2009 is also dubious in the aspects. I doubt he has the guts to get something going in the West Bank though, and Gaza is as quite as a deadman now.

[Meclazine for Israel]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/jerusalem-truck-attack/8168824

This is total crap. I cannot see what the Palestinians could be possibly hoping to achieve.

If anything, it just sets their cause back.

[America Needs R'hllor]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-08/jerusalem-truck-attack/8168824

This is total crap. I cannot see what the Palestinians could be possibly hoping to achieve.

If anything, it just sets their cause back.

It's not 'the Palestinans'. Certainly not Mahmoud Abbas, as you said, he doesn't have anything to achieve. These kinds of attacks are mostly one person deciding to act on his own, sometimes he's encouraged or aided by an organization like Hamas or ISIS, but most of the times he acts independantly while claiming to belong to some organization. This time it appears to be ISIS, which is not related to any Palestinian leadership.