The Set It and Leave it Alone Minimum Wage Act of 2015 (Signed)

[bore]

The problem with interns being paid less than the minimum wage is not that, in most cases they might be getting a bad deal - in plenty of cases they will have calculated that it is worth being paid 5 dollars an hour in, say, a law firm because in their future career they will earn far more because of the internship. The problem is that by having a really low wage only those with rich backers can afford to take them. And in fields where an internship is vital to progress that means the poor are forced out.

[Lief 🗽]

Like I've said, I fully support requiring private employers (like law firms) to pay the full minimum wage (in fact I've never heard of a law firm that does not compensate their student employees generously). But I know from experience that many of the unpaid internships I and friends had during college, where we were working for cash-strapped government offices or non-profit organizations, would simply not have existed at all if they had been required to pay us $15 an hour.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Well, I'm sorry I missed the boat on sponsoring, but I'm happy that Lief seems to understand the dilemma here. Balance is necessary.

[windjammer]

Like I've said, I fully support requiring private employers (like law firms) to pay the full minimum wage (in fact I've never heard of a law firm that does not compensate their student employees generously). But I know from experience that many of the unpaid internships I and friends had during college, where we were working for cash-strapped government offices or non-profit organizations, would simply not have existed at all if they had been required to pay us $15 an hour.

You really raise a good point Lief.

Hmmm, why not paying still paying them at the minimum wage ($15/hour), but the federal government subsidizes a part of it: like 33%???

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Like I've said, I fully support requiring private employers (like law firms) to pay the full minimum wage (in fact I've never heard of a law firm that does not compensate their student employees generously). But I know from experience that many of the unpaid internships I and friends had during college, where we were working for cash-strapped government offices or non-profit organizations, would simply not have existed at all if they had been required to pay us $15 an hour.

You really raise a good point Lief.

Hmmm, why not paying still paying them at the minimum wage ($15/hour), but the federal government subsidizes a part of it: like 33%???

Uh, that has disaster written all over it. This is a difficult balance to strike. Either, we risk reducing the numbers of internships, or we create a market for them, if the Govt is co-funding them.

Another option could be to provide a tax-credit for specific sectors, such as not for profits.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If you want to set a minimum, it doesn't have to be same level as I pointed out a few weeks ago, the tipped employees were on a different schedule of automatic increases in the minimum wage then the main one was.

I undestand the desire to ensure that interns aren't treated like garbage, but, and I hate to disagree with Windjammer here, but this is exactly the problem with using a one size fits all approach to putting more people in the middle class, especially one such as the minimum wage. If having a seperate tier with a lower rate for interns, is the best option for the interns and those agencies that hire them like those Lief said, then take that easier and far more practical path then trying to form some complex subsidization scheme.

[TNF]

Where are we at on this?

[bore]

I echo Polnut's suggestion.

No one is doubting that internships with less than the minimum wage can be good for the intern, the problem is that those internships almost necessarily exclude poorer students.

If there is some way of using a tax credit to fund some non profit internships and government ones, while keeping the same standards on other internships I'll support that.

[Cranberry]

I am supportive of such tax credits exclusively for non-profit and governmental internships, given though the interns still are paid the minimum wage. I echo Senator Windjammer from earlier, in that I don't see why anyone should be paid less than this minimum wage.

[windjammer]

Well,
To clarify my position: I'm against lowering the minimum wage for some workers because that would go after the the principle of the "minimum wage". I'm however not opposed to help companies in order to hire people who have a lower productivity: the interns, the young people,...

So I would definitely support "tax credits" for the companies that want to hire interns.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I'm arguing that a sector-specific credit be created for not-for-profits and the community sector - not a blanket tax credit for all organisations/businesses ... now THAT is something that could be taken advantage of very quickly.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

If it gets called "volunteering" instead of an "unpaid internship" would it still be illegal or no?  Or is the distinction that things done for academic credit have to be paid?   

The idea that because something is less available to the poor it should be illegal would make higher education illegal even with free tuition since poorer students will need to support themselves, right?

[Talleyrand]

How about a 2-3% income tax break for nonprofits who use interns in this bill? I don't know how many nonprofits qualify for income taxation, but if so, I think this could be effective.

[Cranberry]

How about a 2-3% income tax break for nonprofits who use interns in this bill? I don't know how many nonprofits qualify for income taxation, but if so, I think this could be effective.

This seems indeed sensible to me, and I would support such a measure, provided it really just is granted to non-profits.

[Senator Cris]

I think that the Polnut's amendment and the other suggestions are steps in the right direction, but as pointed out by Senator Hagrid, my fear is that with the inclusion of interns, we are turning the bill into something different than the Yankee's purpose.

[Lief 🗽]

I'd rather we pass this bill, then draft a separate one dealing with government/non-profit interns and any sort of subsidy scheme to encourage their hiring/cover the costs of their hiring. Like Cris and Hagrid I worry about turning this bill into something it was not intended to be.

[windjammer]

According to the senate rules, the bill should be withdrawn.

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However, Article IX, Section 2 allows me that:

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I hereby suspend this clause 7 of the rules, in order to allow Senator Lief to become sponsor of this bill. Senators have 36 hours to object.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

If it gets called "volunteering" instead of an "unpaid internship" would it still be illegal or no?  Or is the distinction that things done for academic credit have to be paid?    

The idea that because something is less available to the poor it should be illegal would make higher education illegal even with free tuition since poorer students will need to support themselves, right?

Indeed, this is why I'm inclined to stick to the status quo with regard to interns. I don't think there's feasible solution. It's lose-lose.

That being said, I could support a lower tiered minimum wage for interns if need be. But we ought to come up with a very clear definition of "intern" before we pass anything.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I think that the Polnut's amendment and the other suggestions are steps in the right direction, but as pointed out by Senator Hagrid, my fear is that with the inclusion of interns, we are turning the bill into something different than the Yankee's purpose.

If no one was concerned about my original purpose before last Friday, or even before the 23rd or whatever it was, I highly doubt they care now.

I mean including interns is not so much the problem. All encompassing is actually not to far from what I wanted because that would have increased the stabilization overall, but when the stabilization was thrown out for yet another increase at the outset, that is when this bill truly came off the rails. Still a good deal could be worked out with a definition as shua mentioned and so forth. In which case a situation would thus be formed where a reluctant vote one way or the other is needed. Reluctant aye because it is not perfect, or reluctant nay because a potentially good bill when bad that had potential originally. Like with a lot of things though, there was a method to my madness.

[bore]

If it gets called "volunteering" instead of an "unpaid internship" would it still be illegal or no?  Or is the distinction that things done for academic credit have to be paid?   

I suppose the distinction is that you should not be paid less to do the same job as others, and companies should not be able to rely on you as basically another employee but one who gets paid less.

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No. It is quite possible in principle at the very least to go through university without your parents funding anything. In the UK and almost certainly in Atlasia the grant and loans you get from the government varies with what your parents earn, and they are aid back as a percentage of your income once it hits a certain point (26 000 I think). This is nothing like that. The problem with internships is that many jobs now all but require one and seeing as they can't be accessed by people whose families can't afford to support them - there being no funding or generous loans - the poor are shut out.

[Talleyrand]

How about a 2-3% income tax break for nonprofits who use interns in this bill? I don't know how many nonprofits qualify for income taxation, but if so, I think this could be effective.

This seems indeed sensible to me, and I would support such a measure, provided it really just is granted to non-profits.

What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

[Cranberry]

If it gets called "volunteering" instead of an "unpaid internship" would it still be illegal or no?  Or is the distinction that things done for academic credit have to be paid?    

The idea that because something is less available to the poor it should be illegal would make higher education illegal even with free tuition since poorer students will need to support themselves, right?

Indeed, this is why I'm inclined to stick to the status quo with regard to interns. I don't think there's feasible solution. It's lose-lose.

That being said, I could support a lower tiered minimum wage for interns if need be. But we ought to come up with a very clear definition of "intern" before we pass anything.

I would say, similar to what bore said above, that the distinction between intern and volunteer is not that hard to make: if you do a work that is also done by employed people who get paid for it, then it's an internship; if you work with other people who also do the work for free, then it's a volunteering job, at least that's the way I would understand it.
Thus, I also don't really see why in the first case people should have to pay less or even nothing for interns, save for the case of non-profits or NGOs, which should still have to pay the minimum wage, but still get some tax incentives or breaks, because such internships are often valuable but obviously in most cases not covered by big money... 

[Lief 🗽]

The distinction between volunteering and interning is not hard to make legally, and should not be a stumbling block. In the United States, that once extant country that disappeared off the face of the globe about a decade ago, their government defined volunteer and intern in the FLSA and Department of Labor regulations:

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm

[windjammer]

Without any objection, the rules have been suspended, letting Lief become the sponsor of this legislation.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

The distinction between volunteering and interning is not hard to make legally, and should not be a stumbling block. In the United States, that once extant country that disappeared off the face of the globe about a decade ago, their government defined volunteer and intern in the FLSA and Department of Labor regulations:

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm

That definition does not distinguish between internship and volunteering, only between internship and employment.

I can only imagine that several people have no idea what it is like to want to get employment in a field and not have the necessary experience to get a paid position.  Because you are closing off avenues for people to get that experience. If you aren't willing to work somewhere in an unpaid capacity in order to build experience and connections with people who can give you a leg up, or even just to see if it is a field they want to pursue - fine, you have that option but why would you deny it to others?  Does anyone think really that poor people will not still be at a disadvantage in employment if they have not had a chance to get their foot in the door through an internship program? They may not have the advantage of an attractive graduate degree so an internship can be a saving grace.

But sure, if it's so important to not allow anything that might be unequal, by all means ban it. Yes, lots of people will be screwed and stuck in poverty and you'll get all kinds of downward mobility because of it but that's so less important than making sure everything is equal.