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Yankee
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2017, 02:19:54 pm »
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Should Lula be interrogated, what would a Gomes vs generic right candidate match-up be?

The only right wing candidate I can think of is Bolsonaro, and tbh, I don't really know how it would turn out, in scenarios where Lula isn't running in polls, Ciro appears with 6,7% of the vote. So it's kinda hard to say.

In a scenario with Doria (just talking about him because many consider him a right wing possible candidate), Ciro would be destroyed...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 02:40:19 pm by Yankee_Mapper »Logged
Yankee
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2017, 02:40:02 pm »
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New Poll:

Parana Pesquisas Poll

Scenario 1:

Don't know 4,8%
No one 14,6%
Lula 25,8%
Jair Bolsonaro 16,1%
João Doria 12,1%
Marina Silva 11,1%
Joaquim Barbosa 8,1%
Ciro Gomes 4,3%
Ronaldo Caiado 1,6%
Luciana Genro 1,5%

In this scenario Bolsonaro would win 25,9% of the vote from people that have between 16-24 years, against Lula's 26,1%. And Bolsonaro would win the vote of people between 25-34 years with 22,4% against Lula's 21,6%

Scenario 2:

Don't know 4,5%
No one 14,0%
Lula 25,4%
Jair Bolsonaro 16,8%
Marina Silva 10,4%
Joaquim Barbosa 8,1%
Luciano Huck 7,3%
Geraldo Alckmin 6,4%
Ciro Gomes 4,2%
Ronaldo Caiado 1,6%
Luciana Genro 1,3%

Scenario 3:

Don't know 6,4%
No one 21,9%
Jair Bolsonaro 17,2%
Marina Silva 14,9%
João Doria 13,6%
Joaquim Barbosa 8,7%
Ciro Gomes 6,7%
Bernardinho do Vôlei 3,7%
Fernando Haddad 3,1%
Luciana Genro 1,9%
Ronaldo Caiado 1,8%

Which candidate you wouldn't vote in any circumstance?

Don't know 7,0%
Could vote for all of them 5,4%
Lula 46,5%
Jair Bolsonaro 26,1%
Geraldo Alckmin 24,9%
Ciro Gomes 22,0%
Marina Silva 20,4%
Ronaldo Caiado 19,4%
João Doria 16,7%
Joaquim Barbosa 13,9%
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2017, 01:57:32 pm »
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Lula has just been sentenced to nine and a half years in prison but is still free pending his appeal. Can the Brazilians here clarify whether or not he's also free to run for President whilst his appeal is pending.
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2017, 02:23:20 pm »
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Lula has just been sentenced to nine and a half years in prison but is still free pending his appeal. Can the Brazilians here clarify whether or not he's also free to run for President whilst his appeal is pending.
His attorneys will probably ask for an appeal. Right now, nothing would stop his candidacy unless the appeal court upholds the 1st rolling . After that, yes, he would be barred from running in accordance with "Clean Sheet" (Ficha Limpa) law.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 02:25:33 pm by Mike88 »Logged
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2017, 05:14:12 pm »
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This really doesn't look good.
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Mike88
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2017, 05:55:30 pm »
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Portuguese media is strongly covering Lula's acusation:

Front page of Jornal i:

Quote
Lula on the grill.

PS: Lula translated to English means Squid.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 06:02:03 pm by Mike88 »Logged
Yankee
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2017, 06:11:49 pm »
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Lula has just been sentenced to nine and a half years in prison but is still free pending his appeal. Can the Brazilians here clarify whether or not he's also free to run for President whilst his appeal is pending.

According to Globo, yes he can run, due to some laws Brazil has, but if he is sentenced again, by another judge, than it's an endgame to him, he will not be allowed to run. I might have read something wrong... So don't trust me 100% in this... If you understand Portuguese just read here http://g1.globo.com/politica/operacao-lava-jato/noticia/perguntas-e-respostas-sobre-a-condenacao-de-lula-no-caso-do-triplex.ghtml

Anyway, if Lula is able to run in 2018, he is very lucky, because he's situation isn't good.
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« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2017, 01:55:20 am »
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Maybe this isn't the correct thread, but I didn't find a thread about brazilian politics in general. After the last labour reform, I read in some media in my country, that the current government is analyzing an electoral reform that would change the way the representatives would be elected, and the financing of political parties.
The article I read refers to the possibility and support of PSDB and some right-wing parties for a transition to a parliamentary system (is any general consensus about this in brazilian politics/society?) and the change from the current system (i think it's PR party-list) to a single non-transferable vote (SNTV) that it's only used according to the article in Afghanistan and Jordan and it's opposed by the majority of the academia. They also propose to eliminate re-election for executive mandates (president, governors, mayors), an increase of it from 4 years to 5 years and the end of compulsatory voting.
Is any of this reforms really taking place or it's just speculation?
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RodPresident
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« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2017, 10:28:34 pm »
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Maybe this isn't the correct thread, but I didn't find a thread about brazilian politics in general. After the last labour reform, I read in some media in my country, that the current government is analyzing an electoral reform that would change the way the representatives would be elected, and the financing of political parties.
The article I read refers to the possibility and support of PSDB and some right-wing parties for a transition to a parliamentary system (is any general consensus about this in brazilian politics/society?) and the change from the current system (i think it's PR party-list) to a single non-transferable vote (SNTV) that it's only used according to the article in Afghanistan and Jordan and it's opposed by the majority of the academia. They also propose to eliminate re-election for executive mandates (president, governors, mayors), an increase of it from 4 years to 5 years and the end of compulsatory voting.
Is any of this reforms really taking place or it's just speculation?
Yes, our parliament is discussing now Political Reform. After ban on companies financing political campaigns and all scandals, discussions about campaign finance reform got strong. They're trying to find a system who matches with public financing of campaign.
Our system is a proportional open list where the aggregate vote by coalition candidates will determine the number of seats, while the order will be made by order of votes. This system has lot of critics because of "Tiririca effect", where a well-voted congressman gets enough votes to bring weaker ticket mates. This is named after congressman and clown Tiririca (PR, Sao Paulo) got elected with a lot of protest votes and helped to bring congressmen with 30k votes in Sao Paulo, while other with 100 k votes failed to be elected. But most bizarre situation of this kind was in 2002, when perennial candidate Eneas (then of Prona, Sao Paulo) ran for congress and got record 1,573,642 votes and brought a congressman who got only 275 votes, a number that usually can't elect a councilman even in small cities. Well-voted candidates ended not elected, like Luciana Genro in 2010 (PSOL, Rio Grande do Sul) and sports journalist Jorge Kajuru (PRP, Goias). This was already adressed by 2015 mini-reform where a candidate will need 10% of electoral quocient (number of votes to get one seat) to be electable. Other problem are coalitions, that allowed bizarre coalitions like DEM, PSDB, PSB PMDB and PC do B in Pernambuco, while PT failed to elect a congressman in Lula's birth state because allied candidates got most voted.
The reporter of political reform, Vicente Candido (PT, Sao Paulo) proposed to keep current system for 2018 general election and 2020 local elections and to change to mixed-member system in 2022. But more right-wing parties and big tent parties (DEM, PSDB, PP, PSD) wants to put SNTV (we call Distritao, or big-district system) system as transition rule because they want to keep traditional politicians stronger and to limit growth of more ideological parties. One of most notorius supporters is president Temer.
Most of critics of this transition rule say that this will prevent new candidates of trying to enter politics, while voting won't reflect people ideological positions weakening political parties. Because of that, some parties who rely in big-name candidates, like PR and PRB, and more ideological parties (PT, PC do B, PDT, PSOL). In current system, PT could get a boost from Lula's support, like in 2002, but in big district, they would be luckier to keep current seats. Bolsonaro's people also don't like this system, because they have plans to elect a ultraconservative bench in next year elections, with Bolsonaro's children as vote pushers in Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro.
Congress needs to put this in vote before October 7, because electoral rules need to be approved 1 year before election. After Temer's charge voting, congressional works is almost stopped (Big Center parties desire to take some of PSDB positions in government), while government tries to get support to enlarge debt target from 139 billions of reals to 159 billions.
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RodPresident
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« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2017, 05:30:41 pm »
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Far-right presidential candidate Jair Bolsonaro (PEN, that is going to become Patriots) will do a tour in United States. He'll will be received by pro-market people like Brazil-US Trade Chamber and he'll meet Republican party officers. He wants to show to financial establishment that he's not more a nationalist, but a pro-business conservative.
Political reform in Congress is going to change political party financing, as big-district (Distritao) failed to get enough votes. Congress decided to forbid proportional coalitions from 2020 local elections and to create a progressive threshold (1.5% in 2018, 2% in 2022, 2.5% in 2026 and 3% in 2030) where parties who fail to get it won't be able to get public funds.
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Yankee
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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2017, 04:05:24 pm »
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Well, since each day the election is getting close, I'm reviving this.

There have been some recent news about Luciano Huck, a television host for a program called "Caldeirão do Huck" (Huck's Cauldron in english) thinking about a possible campaign for president next year, I saw many websites claiming that he's party would likely be the Popular Socialist Party...

Knowing the average Brazilian, I wouldn't actually underestimate he's chances of winning if he runs.

Dr. Rey from "Dr. 90210" has said he's going to probably run, and he actually seems kinds serious about this, I saw somewhere that he wants to resurrect PRONA, that was a former Brazilian party, the party was known mostly because of Eneas Carneiro, who ran for president some times and got almost 8% of the vote in 1994. From one interview a saw, he seems to want an free market economy and at the same time, he seems to have a pretty nationalist rhetoric, Rey is currently in PEN, which is the party that Bolsonaro seeks to join, so in case he doesn't create the new PRONA and wants to run, it might be tough.

Rey actually already ran one time to be a congressman, but he lost.
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« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2017, 11:45:32 pm »
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Well, since each day the election is getting close, I'm reviving this.

There have been some recent news about Luciano Huck, a television host for a program called "Caldeirão do Huck" (Huck's Cauldron in english) thinking about a possible campaign for president next year, I saw many websites claiming that he's party would likely be the Popular Socialist Party...

Knowing the average Brazilian, I wouldn't actually underestimate he's chances of winning if he runs.

Dr. Rey from "Dr. 90210" has said he's going to probably run, and he actually seems kinds serious about this, I saw somewhere that he wants to resurrect PRONA, that was a former Brazilian party, the party was known mostly because of Eneas Carneiro, who ran for president some times and got almost 8% of the vote in 1994. From one interview a saw, he seems to want an free market economy and at the same time, he seems to have a pretty nationalist rhetoric, Rey is currently in PEN, which is the party that Bolsonaro seeks to join, so in case he doesn't create the new PRONA and wants to run, it might be tough.

Rey actually already ran one time to be a congressman, but he lost.
who are the candidates of the other major parties or coalitions? does parties only work as a structure of a political figure only? does PR, Progresistas (who are centre-right?) support Bolsonaro?
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RodPresident
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« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2017, 09:00:42 pm »
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Well, since each day the election is getting close, I'm reviving this.

There have been some recent news about Luciano Huck, a television host for a program called "Caldeirão do Huck" (Huck's Cauldron in english) thinking about a possible campaign for president next year, I saw many websites claiming that he's party would likely be the Popular Socialist Party...

Knowing the average Brazilian, I wouldn't actually underestimate he's chances of winning if he runs.

Dr. Rey from "Dr. 90210" has said he's going to probably run, and he actually seems kinds serious about this, I saw somewhere that he wants to resurrect PRONA, that was a former Brazilian party, the party was known mostly because of Eneas Carneiro, who ran for president some times and got almost 8% of the vote in 1994. From one interview a saw, he seems to want an free market economy and at the same time, he seems to have a pretty nationalist rhetoric, Rey is currently in PEN, which is the party that Bolsonaro seeks to join, so in case he doesn't create the new PRONA and wants to run, it might be tough.

Rey actually already ran one time to be a congressman, but he lost.
who are the candidates of the other major parties or coalitions? does parties only work as a structure of a political figure only? does PR, Progresistas (who are centre-right?) support Bolsonaro?
Huck is a pro-business hack and he was very friend with Neves. FHC likes him (because he dislikes Alckmin who didn't stand for his legacy in 2006).
Bolsonaro is likely to go to Ecological National Party (a party for rent, created by an evangelical reverend) and he plans to change his name to "Patriots", following a wave that discards name "Party".
PC do B (Communist Party of Brazil), a former Hoxhaist party who's now democratic socialist, launched state legislator Manuela D'Avila, 36, (Rio Grande do Sul) as their candidate for Presidency. She served 2 times in congress as top voted in RS. Lula went to their party congress and Ciro Gomes sent a video to them. Probably, PC do B has her candidacy to ensure PT support to Flavio Dino's reelection bid in Maranhao.
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Yankee
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« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2017, 09:35:43 pm »
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Well, since each day the election is getting close, I'm reviving this.

There have been some recent news about Luciano Huck, a television host for a program called "Caldeirão do Huck" (Huck's Cauldron in english) thinking about a possible campaign for president next year, I saw many websites claiming that he's party would likely be the Popular Socialist Party...

Knowing the average Brazilian, I wouldn't actually underestimate he's chances of winning if he runs.

Dr. Rey from "Dr. 90210" has said he's going to probably run, and he actually seems kinds serious about this, I saw somewhere that he wants to resurrect PRONA, that was a former Brazilian party, the party was known mostly because of Eneas Carneiro, who ran for president some times and got almost 8% of the vote in 1994. From one interview a saw, he seems to want an free market economy and at the same time, he seems to have a pretty nationalist rhetoric, Rey is currently in PEN, which is the party that Bolsonaro seeks to join, so in case he doesn't create the new PRONA and wants to run, it might be tough.

Rey actually already ran one time to be a congressman, but he lost.
who are the candidates of the other major parties or coalitions? does parties only work as a structure of a political figure only? does PR, Progresistas (who are centre-right?) support Bolsonaro?
Huck is a pro-business hack and he was very friend with Neves. FHC likes him (because he dislikes Alckmin who didn't stand for his legacy in 2006).
Bolsonaro is likely to go to Ecological National Party (a party for rent, created by an evangelical reverend) and he plans to change his name to "Patriots", following a wave that discards name "Party".
PC do B (Communist Party of Brazil), a former Hoxhaist party who's now democratic socialist, launched state legislator Manuela D'Avila, 36, (Rio Grande do Sul) as their candidate for Presidency. She served 2 times in congress as top voted in RS. Lula went to their party congress and Ciro Gomes sent a video to them. Probably, PC do B has her candidacy to ensure PT support to Flavio Dino's reelection bid in Maranhao.

Another party announced their candidate, the party now was "NOVO" (NEW), NOVO seems to be one of, if not the most most liked Brazilian party on facebook (I didn't search that well actually, but it has a lot), but despite that, It's pretty small (according to Wikipedia, they have a little under 14.000 members), they announced that the former president of the party, João Dionísio Amoêdo. NOVO is a libertarian party that aims for ending the compulsory voting and privatizing Petrobras, Banco do Brasil, the Central Bank of Brazil and also public schools and hospitals. The party doesn't have a stance on many social issues like gay marriage.
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RodPresident
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« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2017, 08:38:13 pm »
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Well, since each day the election is getting close, I'm reviving this.

There have been some recent news about Luciano Huck, a television host for a program called "Caldeirão do Huck" (Huck's Cauldron in english) thinking about a possible campaign for president next year, I saw many websites claiming that he's party would likely be the Popular Socialist Party...

Knowing the average Brazilian, I wouldn't actually underestimate he's chances of winning if he runs.

Dr. Rey from "Dr. 90210" has said he's going to probably run, and he actually seems kinds serious about this, I saw somewhere that he wants to resurrect PRONA, that was a former Brazilian party, the party was known mostly because of Eneas Carneiro, who ran for president some times and got almost 8% of the vote in 1994. From one interview a saw, he seems to want an free market economy and at the same time, he seems to have a pretty nationalist rhetoric, Rey is currently in PEN, which is the party that Bolsonaro seeks to join, so in case he doesn't create the new PRONA and wants to run, it might be tough.

Rey actually already ran one time to be a congressman, but he lost.
who are the candidates of the other major parties or coalitions? does parties only work as a structure of a political figure only? does PR, Progresistas (who are centre-right?) support Bolsonaro?
Huck is a pro-business hack and he was very friend with Neves. FHC likes him (because he dislikes Alckmin who didn't stand for his legacy in 2006).
Bolsonaro is likely to go to Ecological National Party (a party for rent, created by an evangelical reverend) and he plans to change his name to "Patriots", following a wave that discards name "Party".
PC do B (Communist Party of Brazil), a former Hoxhaist party who's now democratic socialist, launched state legislator Manuela D'Avila, 36, (Rio Grande do Sul) as their candidate for Presidency. She served 2 times in congress as top voted in RS. Lula went to their party congress and Ciro Gomes sent a video to them. Probably, PC do B has her candidacy to ensure PT support to Flavio Dino's reelection bid in Maranhao.

Another party announced their candidate, the party now was "NOVO" (NEW), NOVO seems to be one of, if not the most most liked Brazilian party on facebook (I didn't search that well actually, but it has a lot), but despite that, It's pretty small (according to Wikipedia, they have a little under 14.000 members), they announced that the former president of the party, João Dionísio Amoêdo. NOVO is a libertarian party that aims for ending the compulsory voting and privatizing Petrobras, Banco do Brasil, the Central Bank of Brazil and also public schools and hospitals. The party doesn't have a stance on many social issues like gay marriage.
You didn't tell that Amoedo is a banker, linked to Itau, largest Brazilian bank. Lot of PSDB-linked economists switched allegiances to New Party, like Gustavo Franco. They want to run former manager of Brazilian volleyball team, Bernardo Rezende, to be their candidate for Rio governorship. Rezende is a economist formed by PUC Rio (Brazilian Chicago School) and he was very friend with Neves (he's partner of one of best Aecio's friends in a network of fitness academies).
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Yankee
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« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2017, 09:43:28 pm »
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Luciano Huck denied he is running for president some days ago, and today Marina Silva announced her intention to be the presidential candidate for her party, REDE, that she created in 2013, but that was only registered 2 years later, her intention to run isn't a surprise, it was already expected.

And also today, Datafolha released a new poll:

Scenario 1:

Lula: 37%
Bolsonaro: 19%
Alckimin: 9%
Gomes: 7%
Boulos: 1%
Rabello: 1%
Other: 7%
Undecided/None: 17%

Scenario 2:

Lula: 37%
Bolsonaro: 18%
Alckimin: 8%
Gomes: 7%
Barbosa: 6%
Boulos: 1%
Rabello: 1%
Other: 5%
Undecided/None: 17%

Scenario 3:

Lula: 36%
Bolsonaro: 18%
Silva: 11%
Gomes: 7%
Doria: 5%
Boulos: 1%
Rabello: 1%
Other: 6%
Undecided/None: 16%

Scenario 4:

Lula: 36%
Bolsonaro: 18%
Silva: 10%
Alckimin: 7%
Gomes: 7%
Boulos: 1%
Rabello: 1%
Other: 5%
Undecided/None: 15%

Scenario 5:

Lula: 34%
Bolsonaro: 17%
Silva: 9%
Gomes: 6%
Alckimin: 6%
Barbosa: 5%
Temer: 1%
Other: 5%
Undecided/None: 14%

Scenario 6:

Bolsonaro: 22%
Gomes: 13%
Alckimin: 12%
Haddad: 3%
Rabello: 2%
Boulos: 1%
Other: 12%
Undecided/None: 35%

Scenario 7:

Bolsonaro: 21%
Gomes: 12%
Alckimin: 11%
Barbosa: 8%
Haddad: 3%
Boulos: 1%
Rabello: 1%
Other: 9%
Undecided/None: 32%

Scenario 8:

Bolsonaro: 21%
Silva: 17%
Gomes: 13%
Doria: 6%
Haddad: 3%
Boulos: 1%
Rabello: 1%
Others: 9%
Undecided/None: 30%

Scenario 9:

Bolsonaro: 21%
Silva: 16%
Gomes: 12%
Alckimin: 9%
Haddad: 3%
Boulos: 1%
Rabello: 1%
Others: 8%
Undecided/None: 28%

Second round:

Scenario 1:

Silva: 46%
Bolsonaro: 32%
Undecided/None: 22%

Scenario 2:

Alckimin: 35%
Gomes: 32%
Undecided/None: 32%

Scenario 3:

Lula: 51%
Bolsonaro: 33%
Undecided/None: 16%

Scenario 4:

Lula: 52%
Alckimin: 30%
Undecided/None: 18%

Scenario 5:

Lula: 48%
Silva: 35%
Undecided/None: 17%
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« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2017, 05:11:32 pm »
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The Lula dynamic is fascinating, with his fate is in the hands of the courts. My wife is Brasileira, by the way, so we are watching this unfold with great interest.
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« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2017, 04:11:05 pm »
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So, Alckmin was elected President of PSDB and will, probably, be the party's candidate in 2018. He's polling around 9-10%. Does he really has a chance?

Also, the PSDB will drop their support for Temer.
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« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2017, 06:35:16 pm »
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Lula will be judged about the whole Triplex thing on January 24, if he is convicted then he may be banned from running for office.
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« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2017, 11:56:57 pm »
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Lula will be judged about the whole Triplex thing on January 24, if he is convicted then he may be banned from running for office.
This thing is very dirty. They booked Lula's appeal judgment by Federal Appelations Court of Porto Alegre (who covers South region - including Moro's Paraná) in anniversary of stroke who killed Marisa Leticia da Silva, Lula's wife and during judiciary recess. Appeal will be judged by 3 judges, João Paulo Gebran, Moro's personal friend, who'll be reporter, Leandro Paulsen, who'll be reviewer and Victor Laus. If decision is made by a 2-1 vote, Lula still can appeal to other chamber of same trial, before going to Supreme Court of Justice (3rd level of justice). Time to Gebran to do a report about Lula's process took 100 days, when Car Wash processes take usually 275 days. Time between report and judgment of appeal was of 54 days, when they usually take 105 days. Even, they can assert that this time is smaller because Lula's age (people with more of 60 years have priority in Brazilian justice), but they judged Pedro Correa, who have 69 years, in 23 months, when they'll judge Lula in 6 months.
Now, they're rumoring Roberto Requião (PMDB-PR) as Lula's running mate or replacement. To run in Lula's ticket, he'll probably leave PMDB. Requião is a leftwing firebrand, even in PMDB. He has political experience (3 terms as governor and 2 terms as senator) that lacks in another PT candidates.
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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2017, 11:53:26 pm »
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Requião's Wikipedia portrait is hilarious:



Anyway, would he actually be a viable contender in the general election if chosen to replace Lula?
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« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2017, 01:56:45 pm »
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Former soccer player Ronaldinho Gaúcho will run for the senator of the state of Rio Grande do Sul in the far right Bolsonaro party
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« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2017, 09:25:13 pm »
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Aww, I liked Ronaldinho. Sad to know he’s far-right.
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« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2017, 02:13:07 am »
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Aww, I liked Ronaldinho. Sad to know he’s far-right.
He's a dumb empty bag of wind. He'll lose. He isn't like Romario who was able to fool electors fighting against football crooks (Marco Polo del Nero, CBF president who can't leave Brazil was suspended by Fifa this week).
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« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2017, 09:52:40 pm »
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Aww, I liked Ronaldinho. Sad to know he’s far-right.
He's a dumb empty bag of wind. He'll lose. He isn't like Romario who was able to fool electors fighting against football crooks (Marco Polo del Nero, CBF president who can't leave Brazil was suspended by Fifa this week).

I wouldn't underestimate Ronaldinho's chance of being elected, Brazilians already elected a clown/comedian (Tiririca) as congressman, and with a lot of votes (3rd most voted congressman in Brazilian history), Tiririca ran a campaign with slogans like "What does a congressman do? I don't know, but elect me and I'll tell you" and people elected him basically as a form to protest, I can see people electing Ronaldinho because he is a celebrity and people are just sick of the current state of Brazilian politics.

By the way, didn't PATRI (Bolsonaro's party) deny this whole Ronaldinho thing? (https://istoe.com.br/partido-que-apoia-bolsonaro-desmente-filiacao-de-ronaldinho-gaucho/)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 12:28:46 am by Yankee »Logged
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