The Oldiesfreak Deluge of Absurdity, Ignorance, and Bad Posts III

[bedstuy]

The black community has turned a disgusting word with a horrid past that was used to demean them into a word of strange pride and unity amongst a certain segment of the population. I see no problem with this.

Name another group of people in America that constantly refers to other people of that group in racial terms, forget the racial epithet part.  We don't have Chinese people saying, "Hello my Chinese-American friend," to each other all the time.  It's just weird to constantly reference race and turn the normal descriptive word for a person into a very loaded, racial descriptor.  I think that promotes a worldview that puts black folks as separate from the rest of society and distinctly inferior and degraded.  

And, yeah, I realize I'm automatically racist for having opinions about a group of people I don't belong to.

There's obviously no comparison in severity... but many folks where I grew up were proud to self-identify as "guidos", but don't you dare call them that yourself unless you're a friend.

Marginalized out-groups have reclaimed slurs against them since time immemorial, it's a natural coping mechanism and, no, I don't personally feel it's right to police that coming from a position of privilege.  "Another group of people" would be, I assume, most of them.

The guido thing is neither here nor there for me.  It's not really a similar word, but if people used it in the same way, I would have similar problems.  For me, the more similar situation is gay people and the word f****t.  Some gay people will use f****t similarly to the n-word, in the sense of reclaiming it.  I find that similarly problematic.   

And, again, I don't buy into the racial boundary here.  Some people like using that word and they have some valid reasons I'm sure.  Let them defend their use of language on its own terms.  I think language matters and it's something we all ought to think about and consider for ourselves. 

[traininthedistance]

The guido thing is neither here nor there for me.  It's not really a similar word, but if people used it in the same way, I would have similar problems.  For me, the more similar situation is gay people and the word f****t.  Some gay people will use f****t similarly to the n-word, in the sense of reclaiming it.  I find that similarly problematic.   

And, again, I don't buy into the racial boundary here.  Some people like using that word and they have some valid reasons I'm sure.  Let them defend their use of language on its own terms.  I think language matters and it's something we all ought to think about and consider for ourselves. 

Well, I don't really agree but I'm glad you're consistent at least.

[bedstuy]

The guido thing is neither here nor there for me.  It's not really a similar word, but if people used it in the same way, I would have similar problems.  For me, the more similar situation is gay people and the word f****t.  Some gay people will use f****t similarly to the n-word, in the sense of reclaiming it.  I find that similarly problematic.   

And, again, I don't buy into the racial boundary here.  Some people like using that word and they have some valid reasons I'm sure.  Let them defend their use of language on its own terms.  I think language matters and it's something we all ought to think about and consider for ourselves. 

Well, I don't really agree but I'm glad you're consistent at least.

Just to address the word f****t a little more.  I would never use it because I've had people use that word in a hateful way against me and in the course of assaulting me.  I think that's the same for a certain generation of black people from the South who experienced the n-word in a violent context coming from white people.  But, I also don't see anything empowering about using f****t.  I think it's transgressive and shocking, which some people like, but it's not a benefit to the gay community at all.

But, my larger point is that it's dehumanizing to constantly identify people by their race or orientation.  A straight white guy gets to be some guy.  A gay man is some f****t.  It's fine to describe someone as black or gay, but it's a bad habit and a legacy of hatred and segregation to constantly tag people with their identity.  And maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think there's some vulgar language that should be reserved for a sports field or a poker game or whatever.       

[Хahar 🤔]

It's easy for white people to not buy into racial boundaries, because white people aren't constrained by racial boundaries.

Essentially, what this comes down to is white people being upset that there's some aspect of society (in this case, the language that black people use among themselves) that white people are unable to control, and consequently taking upon themselves the burden of regulating it. It's really for the blacks' own good, isn't it?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

It's easy for white people to not buy into racial boundaries, because white people aren't constrained by racial boundaries.

Essentially, what this comes down to is white people being upset that there's some aspect of society (in this case, the language that black people use among themselves) that white people are unable to control, and consequently taking upon themselves the burden of regulating it. It's really for the blacks' own good, isn't it?

Your model is based on strict racial categories that are out of date at best.
The thing is, it's not just "among themselves."  If rappers think that their promotion of the term is not being picked up by whites, both in usage and in how they perceive blacks, they are deluded. 

[Хahar 🤔]

Again, racism doesn't end when white people decide that it's over. You don't get to determine whether blackness as a concept is out of date; you're not subject to it.

The behavior of white people isn't the responsibility of black artists; if white people decide that it's acceptable to use racial slurs, that's their fault. Meanwhile, your concern that black people's behavior affects how they're perceived by white people is paternalistic at best. Again, you're just making suggestions for the blacks' own good.

[bedstuy]

Again, racism doesn't end when white people decide that it's over. You don't get to determine whether blackness as a concept is out of date; you're not subject to it.

The behavior of white people isn't the responsibility of black artists; if white people decide that it's acceptable to use racial slurs, that's their fault. Meanwhile, your concern that black people's behavior affects how they're perceived by white people is paternalistic at best. Again, you're just making suggestions for the blacks' own good.

It's easy for white people to not buy into racial boundaries, because white people aren't constrained by racial boundaries.

Essentially, what this comes down to is white people being upset that there's some aspect of society (in this case, the language that black people use among themselves) that white people are unable to control, and consequently taking upon themselves the burden of regulating it. It's really for the blacks' own good, isn't it?

Your model is based on strict racial categories that are out of date at best.
The thing is, it's not just "among themselves."  If rappers think that their promotion of the term is not being picked up by whites, both in usage and in how they perceive blacks, they are deluded. 

Not to pull the black friend card, but we're all part of a multitude of communities.  I have black coworkers, friends, acquaintances, neighbors and members of my family.  I don't fully understand the black experience, as they don't fully understand mine.  But, white and black people share families, cities, neighborhoods and the world.  That being the case, we need to be able to share opinions and worldviews as well.  The "blacks' own good" is absolutely my business as the "whites' own good" is theirs.  I'm sorry if that sounds racist, because I'm pretty sure it isn't.

I understand where people are coming from with the pro-racial boundary, pro- n-word camp.  This type of conversation can turn into this one-way dialogue lecturing black people about bad they are, like it does on Fox News.  I'm sensitive to that and how unhelpful it can be.  But, I think I'm making a valid point and I'm not making it as an attack on black people.  I honestly find  the leftist attempt to protect the black community from anything that seems like criticism to be unhelpful and patronizing.

[Хahar 🤔]

It's great that you have black friends. So do I. You do share a lot of things with them; what you don't share is being defined by your race.

If we can borrow a term from linguistics, whiteness is unmarked; it's the default, and so it's not significant to a white person's identity. Because of that, being white is not analogous to being black, and the parallels you try to draw between not fully understanding the black experience and black people not understanding yours don't work. There is no white experience for black people to understand; white people have no distinct common culture or identity. That's why there's no white equivalent to the N-word; you can pass judgment on black people for using it, but black people can't pass judgment on you, because you're not a member of a marginalized group that would possess such a word.

[traininthedistance]

Not to pull the black friend card, but we're all part of a multitude of communities.  I have black coworkers, friends, acquaintances, neighbors and members of my family.  I don't fully understand the black experience, as they don't fully understand mine.  But, white and black people share families, cities, neighborhoods and the world.  That being the case, we need to be able to share opinions and worldviews as well.  The "blacks' own good" is absolutely my business as the "whites' own good" is theirs.  I'm sorry if that sounds racist, because I'm pretty sure it isn't.

I understand where people are coming from with the pro-racial boundary, pro- n-word camp.  This type of conversation can turn into this one-way dialogue lecturing black people about bad they are, like it does on Fox News.  I'm sensitive to that and how unhelpful it can be.  But, I think I'm making a valid point and I'm not making it as an attack on black people.  I honestly find  the leftist attempt to protect the black community from anything that seems like criticism to be unhelpful and patronizing.

I don't think that any community or culture should consider itself immune from criticism... but this particular criticism is, I think, off-base and unwarranted.

It's great that you have black friends. So do I. You do share a lot of things with them; what you don't share is being defined by your race.

If we can borrow a term from linguistics, whiteness is unmarked; it's the default, and so it's not significant to a white person's identity. Because of that, being white is not analogous to being black, and the parallels you try to draw between not fully understanding the black experience and black people not understanding yours don't work. There is no white experience for black people to understand; white people have no distinct common culture or identity. That's why there's no white equivalent to the N-word; you can pass judgment on black people for using it, but black people can't pass judgment on you, because you're not a member of a marginalized group that would possess such a word.

IIRC bedstuy is gay and so there is an equivalent he would be able to use if he so chooses (the f-word), but which he disapproves of from the "inside".  I know that this probably sounds a little too much like diversity bingo- but hearing that he disapproves of his own group's slur does give me some measure of confidence that he's at least arguing in good faith, even if I don't agree.

[Хahar 🤔]

IIRC bedstuy is gay and so there is an equivalent he would be able to use if he so chooses (the f-word), but which he disapproves of from the "inside".  I know that this probably sounds a little too much like diversity bingo- but hearing that he disapproves of his own group's slur does give me some measure of confidence that he's at least arguing in good faith, even if I don't agree.

That's a fair point. I certainly might have used harsher language here than I needed to, but I just have a major problem with the idea of white people policing other groups' behavior, even if (and perhaps especially if) it's well-meaning.

[Torie]

I use the term "f****t" from time to time. It is a way of laughing at myself, and I use it almost as a term of endearment. It also I think helps to defuse the word. But context is everything. If it is used to demean, then just like any of those other non PC words used in that way, it then becomes an act of bigotry.

[bedstuy]

IIRC bedstuy is gay and so there is an equivalent he would be able to use if he so chooses (the f-word), but which he disapproves of from the "inside".  I know that this probably sounds a little too much like diversity bingo- but hearing that he disapproves of his own group's slur does give me some measure of confidence that he's at least arguing in good faith, even if I don't agree.

That's a fair point. I certainly might have used harsher language here than I needed to, but I just have a major problem with the idea of white people policing other groups' behavior, even if (and perhaps especially if) it's well-meaning.

I appreciate that point of view.  I should clarify that I'm not telling people what words they can use.  I'm saying people should be conscientious in using language and think about the effect of what we say.  I don't go up to random black people and demand they stop using the n-word.  But, if say my nephew or a close friend used the n-word a lot, I would want to talk to him about it.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Again, racism doesn't end when white people decide that it's over. You don't get to determine whether blackness as a concept is out of date; you're not subject to it.

The behavior of white people isn't the responsibility of black artists; if white people decide that it's acceptable to use racial slurs, that's their fault. Meanwhile, your concern that black people's behavior affects how they're perceived by white people is paternalistic at best. Again, you're just making suggestions for the blacks' own good.

Yes, there is racism that exists and blackness exists as a concept. If not the N-word wouldn't be a problem.  It's your reductionist account of people as unambiguously segregated and motivated by their racial roles that is especially absurd in this day and age.

Any relevant perspective I guess you would consider paternalistic by virtue of my whiteness (unless I agree with you??), so you're not really saying anything interesting on that front.

Anyone who claims to have a social consciousness has to take responsibility for what they promote and the form they take to promote it. That's just basic common sense.

[RogueBeaver]

I just find it funny that this guy was at one point in the same party as THEE Joseph McCarthy. He was by no means a modern Republican, but FF for having a similar ideology to that of Eisenhower on war, labor unions, civil rights and presumably domestic programs.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Again, racism doesn't end when white people decide that it's over. You don't get to determine whether blackness as a concept is out of date; you're not subject to it.

The behavior of white people isn't the responsibility of black artists; if white people decide that it's acceptable to use racial slurs, that's their fault. Meanwhile, your concern that black people's behavior affects how they're perceived by white people is paternalistic at best. Again, you're just making suggestions for the blacks' own good.

Yes, there is racism that exists and blackness exists as a concept. If not the N-word wouldn't be a problem.  It's your reductionist account of people as unambiguously segregated and motivated by their racial roles that is especially absurd in this day and age.

Any relevant perspective I guess you would consider paternalistic by virtue of my whiteness (unless I agree with you??), so you're not really saying anything interesting on that front.

Anyone who claims to have a social consciousness has to take responsibility for what they promote and the form they take to promote it. That's just basic common sense.

      This post is vile and despicable. I will give you a hint as to why I, as a Mexican, feel this way: racism is by definition a reductionist paradigm of thought that hasn't lessened in scope but only in its intensity. Therefore if you are Mexican or Black or Asian Or East Indian by virtue of outward appearence, you are immediately reduced to your race to a degree. In otherwords, whether I like it or not I am non-white and judged accordingly and am in a different category of social existence than you. This means that your appraisal of how I have a discourse about being a personof color is immediately going to feel intrusive and paternalistic. Questions thay come to mind are: What do you know about vile racism? Why are you trying to tell me what to do to combat something that doesn't affect you? I get this sense that the n-word makes you uncomfortable and that's why you are opposed to its use. Get over it. It doesn't affect you and it doesn't me either. You can choose to disregard this perspective for a myriad of reasons but know that however few minorities you express your ignorant viewpoints to are going to consider you another ordinary white person. I await your evasive and sarcastic response that is confined to a sentence.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Btw your viewpoint is so obnoxious that I logged into the Atlas for the first time in two weeks on a clunky tablet to let you know.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Btw your viewpoint is so obnoxious that I logged into the Atlas for the first time in two weeks on a clunky tablet to let you know.

I'm not going to get over my aversion to a racial slur no matter how much you try to liberal guilt me into it. I think it's great that you and plenty of people can apparently pump the N-word into your consciousness all day and not let it affect race relations. I really do.  But I simply don't think that's the case for a lot of people.  If you think me giving a damn about that makes me a horrible person that's extraordinary enough you have to go through all the trouble of fiddling with a clunky tablet to tell me, then that just makes me feel extra special.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Dude, you are being racist right now and you aren't using the n-word. You are refusing to treat the viewpoint of a large chunk of Black America as valid because their viewpoint leads to actions that makes you feel you bad as a white man. There is no evidence continued use of the n-word perpetuates racism. You are making this up. Racism in America isn't the use of the n-word and a lack of political correctness. A white college kid using the n-word like a rapper is annoying sure but that kid was as ignorant before he used the word as he was afterwords. What is more importantis that that kid got exposed to politically-conscious Black music, which might well be one of the few times in his life he will listen to the perspectives of Black man or woman on race relations.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Dude, you are being racist right now and you aren't using the n-word. You are refusing to treat the viewpoint of a large chunk of Black America as valid because their viewpoint leads to actions that makes you feel you bad as a white man.  There is no evidence continued use of the n-word perpetuates racism. You are making this up.

It's not about me "feeling bad."   You think I just made up the idea that the word is dehumanizing? Doesn't that refuse to treat as valid the view a large chunk off Black America who have reasons they are not fans of the n-word?

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Agreed, but it seems like the entire point you've been trying to make is that my views are not politically correct.

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How is copious use of the n-word necessary for that. At least here you are trying to make a point that doesn't rely on ad-hominem argumentation.  Glad to see your tablet started working better for you so you could get that out.

[bedstuy]

Some black people are offended when black people use the n-word.  Other black people are not and use the n-word casually and frequently.  Other black people have an opinion somewhere in between.  The question of who is right is a normative question.   It's very complicated, informal, contextual and touchy.  But, it's a normative question that anyone can have a reasoned opinion about.

People who disagree with that proposition just want to flatly dismiss that point and foam at the mouth about it.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

You are certainly making it up because the n-word is constantly used in ways that displays brotherhood and fraternity and solidarity and is empowering and you want to throw this away for some indeterminate reason. Are you really going to try and deny that the n-word is an important form of expression in Black culture?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

The semantics and drama around who is allowed to use the N-word and who isn't allowed to use the N-word, regardless of the race of the user, is more annoying than the use of the word itself. We have a white poster and a hispanic poster battling over a rather minute issue that should be left to the African American community to informally decide for themselves.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I am baffled by the outrage at Shua's post, here. I'm kind of sick and tired of people being told they're not allowed to have opinions on s**t. The amount of hair-trigger outrage and strawmanning went from zero to one-hundred in a way I don't think I've ever seen happen in so short a time.

What I've basically gathered here is: White people aren't allowed to have any opinion on anything race-related. (Unless that opinion happens to be completely agreement with said people.) People of a said race who share that opinion don't matter, because a white person's opinion is always illegitimate. And I would, of course, think exactly that, because I'm white. Therefore, checkmate against me, I guess.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I am going to boil down my argument to a simple sentence and then drop this: you shouldn't dismiss black cultural expression because of the n-word, you should try and understand it.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I completely get that (and I actually agree with you!), my issue was mainly that the opinion from Shua and theotherguywhoIdon'tremember was being dismissed, and people were getting super pissed off all of the sudden, not on its merits, but merely because they are white people stating it.