Greek Referendum on IMF/Troika deal

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

...and I looked into the future, and saw only bloodless technocracy and 'competitiveness'. Utterly, utterly disheartening.

You would prefer non-competitiveness?

I would prefer the concept of 'competitiveness' not be treated as a be-all end-all or a panacea.

Well, I am certain even Angela Merkel fully agrees with you on that point The end is improving the satisfaction of the electorate. Competitiveness is only (one of many) necessary conditions for it

I have absolutely no faith that improving the satisfaction of the Greek electorate would improve the satisfaction of Merkel's base at this point.

[ag]

...and I looked into the future, and saw only bloodless technocracy and 'competitiveness'. Utterly, utterly disheartening.

You would prefer non-competitiveness?

I would prefer the concept of 'competitiveness' not be treated as a be-all end-all or a panacea.

Well, I am certain even Angela Merkel fully agrees with you on that point The end is improving the satisfaction of the electorate. Competitiveness is only (one of many) necessary conditions for it

I have absolutely no faith that improving the satisfaction of the Greek electorate would improve the satisfaction of Merkel's base at this point.

Merkel, obviously, only cares about the German electorate - as she should. For the Greeks there is Tsipras.

[Hydera]

What do germans think about the bailout deal greece has to implement?



57% Approve

22% say not hard enough

13% say too hard




Meanwhile schäuble's hard line stance is making him close to 2/3rd approval in Germany.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

...and I looked into the future, and saw only bloodless technocracy and 'competitiveness'. Utterly, utterly disheartening.

You would prefer non-competitiveness?

I would prefer the concept of 'competitiveness' not be treated as a be-all end-all or a panacea.

Well, I am certain even Angela Merkel fully agrees with you on that point The end is improving the satisfaction of the electorate. Competitiveness is only (one of many) necessary conditions for it

I have absolutely no faith that improving the satisfaction of the Greek electorate would improve the satisfaction of Merkel's base at this point.

Merkel, obviously, only cares about the German electorate - as she should. For the Greeks there is Tsipras.

Who's completely unable to deliver on anything he was elected to do (which isn't his fault, but even so). Even if you approve of the content of what Tsipras has just agreed to, it's hard to argue that he shouldn't do the honorable thing and resign once it's passed.

[ag]

...and I looked into the future, and saw only bloodless technocracy and 'competitiveness'. Utterly, utterly disheartening.

You would prefer non-competitiveness?

I would prefer the concept of 'competitiveness' not be treated as a be-all end-all or a panacea.

Well, I am certain even Angela Merkel fully agrees with you on that point The end is improving the satisfaction of the electorate. Competitiveness is only (one of many) necessary conditions for it

I have absolutely no faith that improving the satisfaction of the Greek electorate would improve the satisfaction of Merkel's base at this point.

Merkel, obviously, only cares about the German electorate - as she should. For the Greeks there is Tsipras.

Who's completely unable to deliver on anything he was elected to do (which isn't his fault, but even so). Even if you approve of the content of what Tsipras has just agreed to, it's hard to argue that he shouldn't do the honorable thing and resign once it's passed.

Well, he had to know that what he was promising before the election was impossible. I have always assumed that his objective was to take Greece out of euro (which, I will reiterate, would be a sensible thing to do - assuming you find a way to mitigate the transition costs). Seems like he sincerely did not want it.

Anyway, he may have been sincerely believing that something could be done that could not be done, but reality has a tendency of catching up. He will, at some point, have to face an election, of course - that is democracy.

[Хahar 🤔]

If I were Tsipras I would call an election right now. There is no coherent opposition. It is difficult to imagine him not winning a large majority.

[ag]

If I were Tsipras I would call an election right now. There is no coherent opposition. It is difficult to imagine him not winning a large majority.

He needs to pass a whole bunch of laws first. Because otherwise there is no deal. And some of those laws will not be all too popular.

[RodPresident]

Tsipras to accept this conditions was blackmailed with more than Euro exit. May be a expel from European Union, a threat of "presidential coup" by Pavlopoulos and other things. Or he's trying to do a Ryti-Ribbentrop where he accepts a harsh deal to resign and get another person to do a deal in better conditions.
And for Germans, how does Schauble survive so long as frontbencher. He'd be disgraced by CDU finance scandal in late 90's-early 2000, but he survives.

[RogueBeaver]

Cabinet shuffle tomorrow, no agreement yet on bridge financing.

[RogueBeaver]

Legislation has been submitted to parliament.

[Bacon King]

IMF now unequivocally demanding that Europe gives Greece more debt relief 

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

IMF now unequivocally demanding that Europe gives Greece more debt relief 

When even the IMF decides that there's too much austerity......

[ag]

IMF now unequivocally demanding that Europe gives Greece more debt relief  

When even the IMF decides that there's too much austerity......

They do not.

Basically, everybody knows that the debt will not be paid. It is used as leverage, to force Greeks to radically change their economy. IMF, of course, is not subject to popular election, so it is more prone to use declarations about debt relief as the carrot. This is unpopular in the creditor countries, so the democratic politicians prefer not to talk about it - there are ways to let Greeks not pay without public declarations. But the issue is not the debt, which is fantom at this point: it is how Greece is remade. And IMF is in agreement on that (on what you call "austerity").

[Antonio the Sixth]

More proof that Germans are utterly delusional

[MaxQue]

How many years until Germany drop the EU pretense and starts calling EU the 4th Reich?

[ag]

How many years until Germany drop the EU pretense and starts calling EU the 4th Reich?

10,000? Yeah, I guess that is as right as any other bllsht number.

[Antonio the Sixth]

How many years until Germany drop the EU pretense and starts calling EU the 4th Reich?

But don't you see? They're the real victims here. Those poor, poor Germans, robbed of their precious money by those lazy Greek moochers. And they even get insulted and called Nazis! This heartbreaking plight must stop.

#weareallgermans

[Helsinkian]

How many years until Germany drop the EU pretense and starts calling EU the 4th Reich?

But don't you see? They're the real victims here. Those poor, poor Germans, robbed of their precious money by those lazy Greek moochers. And they even get insulted and called Nazis! This heartbreaking plight must stop.

#weareallgermans

According to opinion polls, 64 percent of Germans think Schäuble did a good job at the negotiations, and for Merkel that figure is 62 percent. (Source)

It's called democracy. The Syriza people have talked a lot about respecting democracy in the past days, but they need to understand that they are not the only democratically elected government in the EU. If the other Eurozone countries had held referendums on whether or not to approve the bailout, you can be sure that most Eurozone countries in Northern and Eastern Europe would have voted a strong #OXI to further bailouts.

[Antonio the Sixth]

How many years until Germany drop the EU pretense and starts calling EU the 4th Reich?

But don't you see? They're the real victims here. Those poor, poor Germans, robbed of their precious money by those lazy Greek moochers. And they even get insulted and called Nazis! This heartbreaking plight must stop.

#weareallgermans

According to opinion polls, 64 percent of Germans think Schäuble did a good job at the negotiations, and for Merkel that figure is 62 percent. (Source)

It's called democracy. The Syriza people have talked a lot about respecting democracy in the past days, but they need to understand that they are not the only democratically elected government in the EU. If the other Eurozone countries had held referendums on whether or not to approve the bailout, you can be sure that most Eurozone countries in Northern and Eastern Europe would have voted a strong #OXI to further bailouts.

The author's point is that the German people are suffering from collective delusion. These poll numbers just prove it further.

[Hydera]

How many years until Germany drop the EU pretense and starts calling EU the 4th Reich?

But don't you see? They're the real victims here. Those poor, poor Germans, robbed of their precious money by those lazy Greek moochers. And they even get insulted and called Nazis! This heartbreaking plight must stop.

#weareallgermans

According to opinion polls, 64 percent of Germans think Schäuble did a good job at the negotiations, and for Merkel that figure is 62 percent. (Source)

It's called democracy. The Syriza people have talked a lot about respecting democracy in the past days, but they need to understand that they are not the only democratically elected government in the EU. If the other Eurozone countries had held referendums on whether or not to approve the bailout, you can be sure that most Eurozone countries in Northern and Eastern Europe would have voted a strong #OXI to further bailouts.

The author's point is that the German people are suffering from collective delusion. These poll numbers just prove it further.

Agreed, the german people do not want their money going towards greece to pay for greece's past over-borrowing. And despite that, approve of schauble and merkel who capitulated to hollande who demanded an agreement.

the bailout should be ripped to sheds and germans not have to send their money away.

[ag]

How many years until Germany drop the EU pretense and starts calling EU the 4th Reich?

But don't you see? They're the real victims here. Those poor, poor Germans, robbed of their precious money by those lazy Greek moochers. And they even get insulted and called Nazis! This heartbreaking plight must stop.

#weareallgermans

According to opinion polls, 64 percent of Germans think Schäuble did a good job at the negotiations, and for Merkel that figure is 62 percent. (Source)

It's called democracy. The Syriza people have talked a lot about respecting democracy in the past days, but they need to understand that they are not the only democratically elected government in the EU. If the other Eurozone countries had held referendums on whether or not to approve the bailout, you can be sure that most Eurozone countries in Northern and Eastern Europe would have voted a strong #OXI to further bailouts.

You know, there is a reason I am talking about selling Parthenon to Pergamon. No, I do not seriously mean it. But Greek leadership should have campaigned in Geramny, selling the Germans on how good and truly European Greece is. And, yes, a big exhibition of Greek antiquities in Berlin would have been very timely - as would be a big oficial visit of Merkel to Athens (21 guns and all). If you ask people for mony, you do not threaten - unless you are a NYC panhandler, temporarily off your psychotic medication.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is it asking too much of the Germans that they try to educate themselves about the economic and social ramifications of their policy? Or better yet, is it asking too much of the German media that they stop feeding their viewers/readers with jingoistic propaganda, and start documenting what's actually going on in Greece?

[Cassius]

I think some people need to stop getting so emotionally invested in this crisis to be honest. It doesn't make for particularly interesting or insightful analysis.

[Hydera]

Is it asking too much of the Germans that they try to educate themselves about the economic and social ramifications of their policy? Or better yet, is it asking too much of the German media that they stop feeding their viewers/readers with jingoistic propaganda, and start documenting what's actually going on in Greece?

They just want their money back.

Most germans only have an 18% confidence that the greek government would do what it promised in the deal this week.

And just 13% think the measures are "too-harsh" 57% say its enough, 22% say not enough.

If your country didn't want to fall into this situation, the debate should of been asked decades ago when the borrowing started being made. Not post-2008 when it was too late to debate the effectss.

[ag]

Is it asking too much of the Germans that they try to educate themselves about the economic and social ramifications of their policy? Or better yet, is it asking too much of the German media that they stop feeding their viewers/readers with jingoistic propaganda, and start documenting what's actually going on in Greece?

Greeks, not Germans have the interest in doing the propaganda here. And their government chose to not do any. I do not see why you blame the Germans here.