UK General Discussion: 2017 and onwards, Mayhem

[Helsinkian]

fact remains that Gibraltar has been British since 1713. Would they really join Spain just to stay in the EU, and give up a British identity in the process?

As I said I have no idea, but I read many articles on Bloomberg and the Economist, how Gibraltar is deeply dependent on the EU's single market,
if businesses in Gibraltar can't gain access to the EU single market or are highly tariffed,
Leaving the UK might be appealing to business community in Gibraltar....

Money is not the only factor that contributes to how people vote. Among other factors, there's this thing called national pride.

[DaWN]

'What England wants, it gets': Brexit deal fails to win over Scottish voters
Few in Glasgow have a good word to say about Brexit, and many feel ignored by Westminster
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/20/what-england-wants-it-gets-brexit-deal-fails-to-win-over-scottish-voters?CMP=share_btn_tw

Nicola Sturgeon says independence referendum could come after Holyrood election
https://www.scotsman.com/news/nicola-sturgeon-says-independence-referendum-could-come-after-holyrood-election-1-4832488

This may end up being an unwise prediction, but I don't think Indyref2 is happening any time soon. I don't like Sturgeon (to put it mildly) but she's far from an idiot - she won't call a referendum she doesn't think she can win, and despite all the Brexit cock ups, polling shows No still has a pretty sizeable lead, and the Unionists aren't going to make the same mistake of running a crappy campaign a second time around.

[Izzyeviel]

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1064642837176860674

[Former President tack50]

Spanish minister Josep Borrell says Scots could join EU
Scotland would be accepted into the European Union if it voted for independence in a legal referendum, Spain’s foreign and EU minister has said.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/spanish-minister-josep-borrell-says-scots-could-join-eu-x38c9fkv5

^^ that's significant, Spain used to be the obstacle to an Independent Scotland EU membership, it's good news for the SNP...

He inmediately clarified with "if Scotland leaves the UK according to British law". Which basically means "if there's an indyref 2 and leave wins we won't oppose Scotland joining".

So, nothing new really. I'm pretty sure that was the position of the Spanish government during indyref 1 anyways.

[Former President tack50]

I've been to Gibraltar. Trust me, it's very British.

Well, I haven't been to Gibraltar, but from what I've heard is basically people with an extremely heavy Andalusian accent  waving the union jack and claiming theyare totally British.

Which they are, but it's still quite funny to me.

Here is some of Gibraltar TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pffC9la_pOc

[DaWN]

Scotland would've voted YES 4 years ago had Alex Salmond not made it all about himself,

I don't doubt that. The point I was making is that this time the Unionist campaign won't have David bloody Cameron fronting it. They'll have popular figures like Davidson and they won't repeat their dumb mistakes from last time which very nearly cost them.

Demographics changes favour independence,

Certainly possible, although I suspect the next round of non-Tory national government (whenever that is, probably not soon lmao) will see independence support drop a bit.

I think Scottish independence would be a great thing for Scotland, particularly for for left-leaning Scots who yearn for fairer, more just society outside the rigged London centric economy.
The Nordic model is hugely popular in Scotland...

It would be a great thing for Scotland in the same way Brexit is going to be a great thing for the UK - it isn't. It would be shallow nationalism and demonising of the 'enemy' (the English/Eastern Europeans respectively) winning over economic and political reality.

As for the 'London centric economy', really? There's a reason the UK economy centres on London, it's because it's one of the most important economic centres in the world. There's economic disparity between regions obviously, but I think those in the North of England and Wales probably have more to complain about than the Scots there.

The Nordic model is popular in England as well I'd imagine. People still vote for the Tories because of dumb reasons and I suspect the Scottish Conservatives would find themselves in a very good position in an independent Scotland once the SNP realise that governing an independent country isn't just posturing and screaming about how it's all the English's fault.

[Former President tack50]

UK could share sovereignty of Gibraltar with Spain to resolve Brexit row, Lord Hain says
Lord Hain believes he was "right" about an early 2000s plan to share The Rock, as Spain issues a threat over the UK's EU exit.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-could-share-sovereignty-of-gibraltar-with-spain-to-resolve-brexit-row-lord-hain-says-11561016

^^ here here

This will never happen, Gibraltarians are extremely opposed to even co-sovereignty. I would be surprised if it even breaks 10% in a hypothetical referendum.

Honestly best case scenario is that Gibraltar loses its tax heaven status, stops being a British colony and becomes a standard part of the UK just like London or Edinburgh. Raise the necessary taxes, give Gibraltar 1 MP in the House of Commons and the problem is solved.

It would also stop the Spanish argument of "Gibraltar is a colony"

[Omega21]

The Polish family divided over leaving the UK during Brexit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRr2NVgkbS8

^^ heartbreaking 😢💔, if I was there I'd hug this poor lady and beg her not to leave 💔
England will always be their home, she was so sad about leaving, so so sad ;/😢

You do know that she can stay like nothing has changed, right...?

[Silent Hunter]

UK could share sovereignty of Gibraltar with Spain to resolve Brexit row, Lord Hain says
Lord Hain believes he was "right" about an early 2000s plan to share The Rock, as Spain issues a threat over the UK's EU exit.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-could-share-sovereignty-of-gibraltar-with-spain-to-resolve-brexit-row-lord-hain-says-11561016

^^ here here

This will never happen, Gibraltarians are extremely opposed to even co-sovereignty. I would be surprised if it even breaks 10% in a hypothetical referendum.

Honestly best case scenario is that Gibraltar loses its tax heaven status, stops being a British colony and becomes a standard part of the UK just like London or Edinburgh. Raise the necessary taxes, give Gibraltar 1 MP in the House of Commons and the problem is solved.

It would also stop the Spanish argument of "Gibraltar is a colony"

Without being a tax haven, Gibraltar would probably be broke pretty quickly. It's why other British colonies do that; they don't have the domestic economy for independence and would be a money drain as full UK territory.

[Gass3268]

MAY-SSACRE - Theresa May could suffer a 200-vote defeat when the Commons decides on her Brexit deal — dealing a fatal blow to her Premiership
A Cabinet minister told The Sun: 'Theresa is still being told she can win this by the people around her in No10. They are going to bring her down'



https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/7843364/theresa-may-commons-200-vote-defeat-brexit-deal/

Is there a (tentative?) date set yet for the vote?

[Angel of Death]

Is there a (tentative?) date set yet for the vote?

December 11.

I believe Article 50 cannot be revoked except possibly with unanimous support with my reasoning being that it explicitly spells out that (merely) extending the period till leaving already requires such, which would otherwise be a moot point. It's a bit like the legal principle that the exception proves the rule.

[Tintrlvr]

MAY-SSACRE - Theresa May could suffer a 200-vote defeat when the Commons decides on her Brexit deal — dealing a fatal blow to her Premiership
A Cabinet minister told The Sun: 'Theresa is still being told she can win this by the people around her in No10. They are going to bring her down'



https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/7843364/theresa-may-commons-200-vote-defeat-brexit-deal/

Who are the pro-deal Lib Dem and the pro-deal Labourites? I can think of a couple of hardcore Brexiteer Labourites but not even sure they'd vote in favor of the deal, and I thought all of the parliamentary Lib Dems were now Remainers.

[YL]

Who are the pro-deal Lib Dem and the pro-deal Labourites? I can think of a couple of hardcore Brexiteer Labourites but not even sure they'd vote in favor of the deal, and I thought all of the parliamentary Lib Dems were now Remainers.

I can think of Caroline Flint, she voted remain but represents a large leave constituency in south Yorkshire, she said she might back the governments deal
Gareth snell and Gloria De Piero, already declared they won't back the deal (both Labour MPs representing large leave areas in the midlands)

I don't think of any Lib Dem MP would vote for the deal...
 

The Lib Dem MP who is voting for the deal is Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne); he pledged that he would during the last election campaign.  Eastbourne voted Leave.

Flint is indeed the Labour MP who is expected to vote for it.  The Guardian's list also has ex-Labour Frank Field as an "Unconfirmed" For.  A few other Labour MPs are "Unconfirmed" Against.  Gareth Snell (Stoke on Trent Central) was someone who I thought might have voted for it, but he has said he will vote against.

[Lumine]

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That's... unlikely. YouGov has seemingly been accurate, but that does seem to come out of nowhere unless the public was A. Suddenly realizing Corbyn has no realistic or feasible plan and B. Somehow started to rally behind May despite the sheer unpopularity of the deal and the fact that the confirmed No votes continue to rise.

So weird, really, I'll look forward to the details of that poll.

[NewYorkExpress]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-teenager-tourist-arrested-spying-egypt-photo-helicopter-muhammad-abulkasem-manchester-a8661416.html

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As if Theresa May, didn't have enough to deal with already, without a potential foreign policy crisis outside of Europe.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Kate Osamor has resigned as Shadow International Development Secretary after being accused of threatening to beat up a journalist - who was doorstepping her in connection with a longrunning story about her son's drug-related legal difficulties - with a baseball bat. And we still have the best part of a month to go from the year 2018.

[Former President tack50]

Ah, so I guess Sturgeon is now going full Catalonia? They also did the "win an election explicitly on independence" stunt. They lost it but that didn't stop them anyways

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Delusional as usual.

[Thatkat04]

SNP plot to end Union without referendum
Ministers believe an election win on an independence manifesto could be enough for talks

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-plot-to-end-union-without-referendum-vjklf998l

^^ fair play..

The SNP needs to tread carefully here. Even with Brexit, there has yet to be a single poll this year showing indepence winning.

[DaWN]

It's getting to the point where I'm just enjoying the utter hilarity of it all now. We're f!cked either way, might as well get some entertainment from the once mighty Conservative party falling into a farce straight out of a school pantomime, Twitter socialists aghast that the public don't adore their Lord and Messiah as much as they do, and irrelevant throwbacks from the New Labour era desperately trying to stay relevant but ending up hurting the causes they are espousing simply by opening their mouths. The only bit I can't get entertainment from is Comrade Useless and his merry chums, simply because of how depressing it is that they're the only hope of stopping the idiots in power, but can't have it all. Just enjoy the show until things improve (if they improve lol).

[DaWN]

^^ I though for while Labour would start leading in polls sooner or later, as the tories are failing miserably to govern.

There's a huge amount of people who just won't vote for Corbyn, regardless of whether they 'Agree with him on the issues!!!!' or 'Disagree with austerity!!!'. I agree with him on some of the issues and I think austerity is economic insanity, yet I wouldn't vote for Labour under him if you forced me. His style, his previous company, the anti-semitism stuff, his refusal to actual oppose the government in any meaningful way on Brexit, it all puts people off, despite what the Twitter socialists would have you believe.

And remember, the Tories are failing miserably to govern, but the one thing they will never fail miserably at is self-preservation, especially with an opposition so useless.

Let hope after march 2019 this nightmare ends, and the political class start talking about real issues like NHS and social care, railways and transport, education, climate change and fracking, housing, welfare and universal credit, etc

I wouldn't put money on it. Like it or not, this is probably going to dominate our political sphere for years yet. At least there's a good chance the disaster brings down the existing political status quo and we get something vaguely acceptable out of the ashes. We as a country can't have nice things though, so probably not.

[DaWN]

And this debate thing is reinforcing what I said further up. Absolutely comedy gold - Labour throwing a fit because the BBC aren't letting Corbyn go up on a stage and talk about how much he loves Brexit and agrees with May for an hour.

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

Parliament has voted 311-293 that the government is in contempt of Parliament over the government releasing a heavily edited version of its legal advice on Brexit when Parliament requested it in full

[Zaybay]

First the riots in Paris, now this. It seems that politics in Europe are starting to spin out of control...

[Lourdes]

Four million British workers live in poverty, charity says

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/04/four-million-british-workers-live-in-poverty-charity-says

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Yikes