Repeal of the Illegal Immigrant Act (Awaiting Presidential Signature/Veto)

[Franzl]

So wait, are we saying that any illegal alien that receives medical care will automatically be deported because he "benefited from taxpayer-funded services"?

I don't think that's very reasonable. I do, of course, agree that any illegal involved in crime or terrorism must be deported....sure.

Personally, I'm not all that supportive of much change to the existing piece of legislation.

[Purple State]

So wait, are we saying that any illegal alien that receives medical care will automatically be deported because he "benefited from taxpayer-funded services"?

Yes. It is incredibly costly to taxpayers to deal with the medical expenses of millions of illegal immigrants. It is fine if they want the medical care, but then we are deporting them after they recover. Otherwise, we become the free clinic of the world.

[Franzl]

So wait, are we saying that any illegal alien that receives medical care will automatically be deported because he "benefited from taxpayer-funded services"?

Yes. It is incredibly costly to taxpayers to deal with the medical expenses of millions of illegal immigrants. It is fine if they want the medical care, but then we are deporting them after they recover. Otherwise, we become the free clinic of the world.

I can't support that.

All that would do is make illegal immigrants afraid to seek medical care because they don't want to be deported, much like people that can't afford health insurance also think long and hard about whether they really want to see a doctor...only, in the case of illegals, it's a matter that will have immediate negative effects.

[Purple State]

So wait, are we saying that any illegal alien that receives medical care will automatically be deported because he "benefited from taxpayer-funded services"?

Yes. It is incredibly costly to taxpayers to deal with the medical expenses of millions of illegal immigrants. It is fine if they want the medical care, but then we are deporting them after they recover. Otherwise, we become the free clinic of the world.

I can't support that.

All that would do is make illegal immigrants afraid to seek medical care because they don't want to be deported, much like people that can't afford health insurance also think long and hard about whether they really want to see a doctor...only, in the case of illegals, it's a matter that will have immediate negative effects.

So we open our hospitals to unlimited debt? How about this instead then.

The Illegal Immigrant Act of 2009
Section 1: Replacement
1. F.L. 18-8 is hereby repealed
2. Any illegal immigrant granted citizenship under the Illegal Immigrant Act prior to passage of this bill shall continue to maintain citizen status.

Section 2: State Services
1. No hospital or place of medical care may deny treatment to a person based on their status as an alien or non-citizen.
2. Within two weeks after the passage of this act, employers paying below the minimum wage to illegal aliens shall be prosecuted as if they were paying below the minimum wage to legal workers.
3. The government shall fully fund all services for illegal immigrants required by this law incurred by citizens of Atlasia.

Section 3: Deportation
1. Any illegal immigrant found to have committed or planned to commit a crime or act of terror shall immediately be detained and deported to their country of origin.
2. Upon detention and deportation of an illegal immigrant, any member of said immigrant's family that holds alien status may opt to return along with their family member or remain in Atlasia. This does not preclude the deportation of those aliens that wish to remain at a later date due to separate violations.
3. Detention and deportation may be delayed to allow for recovery from illness or life-threatening circumstances on a case by case basis.

[Franzl]

It's not necessarily unlimited debt. I mean...really poor people will have no way of even entering Atlasia.....yes, I am aware that lots of people do enter illegally every day, but the answer is to increase border security, and work on a path to citizenship for the illegal immigrants currently in Atlasia. People that are presently here should not have to be afraid of seeking urgent medical care, should it be necessary. That's just asking for trouble, not to mention that the costs of a dead illegal immigrant should also not be underestimated. Who cares for his family? Does the family then resort to criminal activity? (Not to mention the missing sales tax revenues...It's not like illegals don't pay anything.)

If we want to seriously solve the problem, we need to work on making these people legal, productive members of society. Threatening to deport anyone that dares to require medical care will cause more problems than it could solve.

[Purple State]

I tried incorporating what you said Franzl into this edition:

The Illegal Immigrant Act of 2009
Section 1: Replacement
1. F.L. 18-8 is hereby repealed
2. Any illegal immigrant granted citizenship under the Illegal Immigrant Act prior to passage of this bill shall continue to maintain citizen status.

Section 2: State Services
1. No hospital or place of medical care may deny treatment to a person based on their status as an alien or non-citizen.
2. Within two weeks after the passage of this act, employers paying below the minimum wage to illegal aliens shall be prosecuted as if they were paying below the minimum wage to legal workers.
3. The government shall fully fund all services for illegal immigrants required by this law incurred by citizens of Atlasia.

Section 3: Deportation
1. Any illegal immigrant found to have committed or planned to commit a crime or act of terror shall immediately be detained and deported to their country of origin.
2. Upon detention and deportation of an illegal immigrant, any member of said immigrant's family that holds alien status may opt to return along with their family member or remain in Atlasia. This does not preclude the deportation of those aliens that wish to remain at a later date due to separate violations.
3. Detention and deportation may be delayed to allow for recovery from illness or life-threatening circumstances on a case by case basis.

Section 4: Border Security
1. The military shall deploy 10,000 soldiers along the Atlasia-Mexico border to prevent the entrance of illegal immigrants, smuggling operations, and other activities harmful to the nation.
2. A border fence with electronic surveillance capabilities shall be built along the Atlasia-Mexico border to better monitor attempted entrance and to alert border security forces of potential breaches.
3. The military shall receive an additional $15 billion discretionary funding, on top of the above expenditures, to research new technologies and increase security to prevent illegal immigration into Atlasia.

[Bacon King]

Honest question: would a fence even be worth the money?

[Purple State]

Honest question: would a fence even be worth the money?

Probably depends how good it is. Possibly only an electronic monitoring sort of fence? I still don't really understand why a large, tall fence doesn't work. I don't mean chain, like solid stone with checkpoints for legal passage between nations. If there are alert sensors on top of that to get border security down there immediately it could work.

[Franzl]

I like the most recent amendment you posted, PS.

Please note that I really do understand the reasoning behind your wish to deport illegal immigrants who use government services...it seems reasonable....but I really do fear what that might have for indirect results and consequences. Even though it seems just....considering that sick illegals certainly use more than they ever give back.

Anyway...thanks for your efforts in writing this amendment, I appreciate it.


To Bacon King....umm, well, I don't quite understand why we in Atlasia put an artificial price tag on certain things. (Or was that an estimate from the real world on what a potential fence might cost, PS? I have no idea.).

Regardless, it probably is worth the money...at least subjectively.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Nobody listens to me. Sorry for not wanting blatantly useless provisions in bills.

[HappyWarrior]

     Nobody listens to me. Sorry for not wanting blatantly useless provisions in bills.

PiT personally I support such a provision in the law simply to ensure that everything is perfectly clear.  After all I doubt that such a grandfather clause will hurt anything you know?

[Smid]

     I don't think they would have it revoked anyway as they became citizens of the Republic of Atlasia pursuant to Atlasian law. That those laws later changed would be immaterial.

Sorry, I believe you're quite correct. Citizenship granted cannot later be revoked. Residency can, but citzenship cannot. At least, that's how it is here.

    Both my mother & Torie are fairly sure that this would not revoke the citizenship of any illegal immigrants who became citizens because of the Illegal Immigration Act. I don't think there's anything to worry about.

Just thought I should clarify further - in Australian immigration law, residency does not mean citizenship. There are four types of people in Australia: citizens, people on permanent residency visas, people on temporary residency visas, people in the country illegally. If someone is on a permanent residency visa, they can apply for citizenship after three years, their visa doesn't have an end date although I think it expires if they spend more than (and I don't remember the specifics, but I think...) five years outside of the country without re-entering. Temporary visas expire on a particular date stated on the visa (for example, the soon to be abolished 457 visa is a four year temporary visa for skilled workers, to allow them to work in the country for a specified employer who sponsored their residency application, then you have a working holiday visa which is one year long and various tourist visas which typically expire after three months but can be set at up to a year).

When I was saying that residency can be revoked, I was meaning that either a temporary or permanent residency visa could be revoked. Citizenship can't be revoked, and the rights of citizenship clearly include the right to enter and leave Australia (although obviously not the right to leave if there's a warrant for your arrest). When I said that residency can be revoked, I don't mean that a citizen can be denied the right to reside in the country.

In short, what I'm saying is that what you've said above is what I was trying to say.


Turning now to PurpleState's amendment, I have issue with s1(2) - the grandfathering clause. Specifically, my problem is that it refers to the means by which citizens came to be in Atlasia.

I would perhaps suggest re-wording it to be something more along the lines of:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I still think that sounds a little awkward and could probably be improved, but as the amendment currently stands, it refers to some citizens as being "illegal immigrants." I would suggest that someone can't be both a citizen and an illegal immigrant, that they cease to be an illegal immigrant from the moment they take the oath of citizenship, and therefore the wording must be changed. Even changing the wording to "Any person granted citizenship" would be better.

[SPC]

I tried incorporating what you said Franzl into this edition:

The Illegal Immigrant Act of 2009
Section 1: Replacement
1. F.L. 18-8 is hereby repealed
2. Any illegal immigrant granted citizenship under the Illegal Immigrant Act prior to passage of this bill shall continue to maintain citizen status.

Section 2: State Services
1. No hospital or place of medical care may deny treatment to a person based on their status as an alien or non-citizen.
2. Within two weeks after the passage of this act, employers paying below the minimum wage to illegal aliens shall be prosecuted as if they were paying below the minimum wage to legal workers.
3. The government shall fully fund all services for illegal immigrants required by this law incurred by citizens of Atlasia.

Section 3: Deportation
1. Any illegal immigrant found to have committed or planned to commit a crime or act of terror shall immediately be detained and deported to their country of origin.
2. Upon detention and deportation of an illegal immigrant, any member of said immigrant's family that holds alien status may opt to return along with their family member or remain in Atlasia. This does not preclude the deportation of those aliens that wish to remain at a later date due to separate violations.
3. Detention and deportation may be delayed to allow for recovery from illness or life-threatening circumstances on a case by case basis.

Section 4: Border Security
1. The military shall deploy 10,000 soldiers along the Atlasia-Mexico border to prevent the entrance of illegal immigrants, smuggling operations, and other activities harmful to the nation.
2. A border fence with electronic surveillance capabilities shall be built along the Atlasia-Mexico border to better monitor attempted entrance and to alert border security forces of potential breaches.
3. The military shall receive an additional $15 billion discretionary funding, on top of the above expenditures, to research new technologies and increase security to prevent illegal immigration into Atlasia.

Section 4 is atrocious. Sections 2 and 3 are awful as well.

[Lief 🗽]

Section 4 is illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act probably. And even if it isn't, I don't like it.

[Ebowed]

Why is any of this even necessary?

The original Illegal Immigrant Act is fine.

[Smid]

Hold on, wasn't Mexico annexed by Atlasia or something? I don't tend to read those military-style threads, but I was of that impression.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I'd like to move forward with a vote on my amendment unless it is accepted as friendly

[Smid]

Turning now to PurpleState's DWTL's amendment, I have issue with s1(2) - the grandfathering clause. Specifically, my problem is that it refers to the means by which citizens came to be in Atlasia.

I would perhaps suggest re-wording it to be something more along the lines of:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I still think that sounds a little awkward and could probably be improved, but as the amendment currently stands, it refers to some citizens as being "illegal immigrants." I would suggest that someone can't be both a citizen and an illegal immigrant, that they cease to be an illegal immigrant from the moment they take the oath of citizenship, and therefore the wording must be changed. Even changing the wording to "Any person granted citizenship" would be better.

[HappyWarrior]

On DWTL's amendment:

NAY

I prefer the one put forward by PS.

[MasterJedi]

Nay, I also support PS's amendment.

[Lief 🗽]

abstain

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Nay

[Franzl]

Abstain

[SPC]

Hold on, wasn't Mexico annexed by Atlasia or something? I don't tend to read those military-style threads, but I was of that impression.

Not by Atlasia, but it is essentially a Dirty Southern satellite state.

[SPC]

Abstain