Mueller report thread - Mueller testimony July 24

[HisGrace]

I knew we'd get to Clinton and Obama sooner or later.....

[DrScholl]

Debbie Lesko called Mueller Mr. Miller. Lol.

[HisGrace]

2 thoughts here

1. Republicans generally seemed to want Mueller to confine his answers to the confines of the report, but now they keep asking him questions outside the parameters of the report and getting mad when he won't answer them.

2. I don't really see how anyone can say Mueller is biased here. He's bending over backwards to stick to the facts and not give his own interpretation of events. Rather than adjusting their opinions to fit with the facts the rights response to conflicting information these days is just to get mad and attack the source. Republicans can't have it both ways and say that there's nothing damaging to Trump in the report and that it's a hit job by Mueller. Democrats weren't happy with certain elements of the report but I never heard any of them saying he was biased because that would have been ridiculous.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

So the entire jist of what happen was:

1) The Russian Government saw in the Trump campaign a potential government for multiple reasons, they would prefer over other viable alternatives

2) They started an espionage campaign to help him win again his rivals

3) The Trump campaign (and Trump himself) knew about the espionage campaign and asked to participate. Those in charge of the espionage campaign refused on the grounds they "would just get in the way" and when other individuals somehow related to the espionage campaigned offered to help, the Trump campaign interviewed them but decided that they would "just get in the way". So the Trump campaign repeatedly try to conspire with the Russian Government's espionage campaign but failed to do so.

4) When under investigation, Trump himself repeatedly tried to cover up his attempted conspiracy with the espionage campaign he incidentally benefited but was unsuccessful in trying to cover up the attempted conspiracy by employees who refused to cooperate.

We already know this but its good to know what this all really means and this hearing the confirms this suspicion-

Trump should be impeached and eventually charged for his attempt to cover up his attempt to conspire with a foreign government's espionage campaign to commit election fraud.

If that's true, that means they will do it again in 2020, and most likely they'll have better methods which could potentially involve actual vote altering (which they attempted in 2016 but were unsuccessful).

We don't know that.

We don't even have a strong basis for believing that.

All we know is that there is no definitive evidence that votes were successfully changed.

We know they hacked into US voting systems, but that no votes were changed.

Why else would they hack into voting systems if not to alter votes?  Their efforts were unsuccessful but they did make the attempt.

I'm saying we have no basis for believing their efforts were unsuccessful. We have no way to know either way. Mueller made a statement along similar lines in this hearing when he said it was outside his purviewto determine if Russian interference actually changed votes.

[CookieDamage]

Johnson just lied his head off. Cool.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Looking forward to Cheeto Mussolini’s meltdown on Twitter

[Badger]

Boy Mueller age is really showing though

Hell, I was listening to the hearings from the start this morning on NPR, and even over the radio I commented to myself how old he sounded. Still, from what I heard is answer seemed effective, albeit short

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Looking forward to Cheeto Mussolini’s meltdown on Twitter

It'll just be more of what we got this morning.

We'll get a reiteration of all the GOP talking points: allegations of a shadowy conspiracy, accusations of bias on the part of Mueller and his team, etc. (If anything, Mueller was trying too hard to be non-partisan.) There will also be vague ranting, and implications that any attempt to challenge Mangolini's godhood is treason.  Mr. Trump doesn't normally venture into the "can't indict the President so he can't have done anything wrong" circular logic, so I doubt we'll see it.

Key takeaway from the first hearing: if Donald Trump was not occupying the office of President of the United States, Mueller would have charged him with obstruction of justice.

And... Mueller walked that back during the second hearing, without clearing Trump, of course.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

This exchange did not go the way Buck wanted:
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1154042949287596032

[J. J.]

As political theater, Mueller has failed.  He comes out as confuse, and evasive.  The opening that he gave the Democrats of the inability to indict a sitting president was closed. 

The intelligence report will be more telling, if we hear it, as will the IG's report.

[DrScholl]

The conclusion remains that the heifer was not exonerated.

[J. J.]

The conclusion remains that the heifer was not exonerated.

But there was not even enough evidence to charge. 

[Hindsight was 2020]

The conclusion remains that the heifer was not exonerated.

But there was not even enough evidence to charge. 

Except Mueller didn’t say that but whatever

[DrScholl]

The conclusion remains that the heifer was not exonerated.

But there was not even enough evidence to charge. 

No, that wasn't what was stated. Pretty much that only thing protecting Trump is that a sitting President cannot be indicted. Mueller said he could be charged post presidency.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Conclusion: these hearings will change few, if any minds.  Which is about what I expected.

[Landslide Lyndon]

The conclusion remains that the heifer was not exonerated.

But there was not even enough evidence to charge. 

Ah, the good old JJ, trying to convince us that the sun rises from the west.

[J. J.]

The conclusion remains that the heifer was not exonerated.

But there was not even enough evidence to charge. 

No, that wasn't what was stated. Pretty much that only thing protecting Trump is that a sitting President cannot be indicted. Mueller said he could be charged post presidency.

Actually, Mueller said that this was not a factor. 

[President Johnson]

So, if being president is the only thing that keeps you from being in prison is probably a sign, you shouldn't be president anymore.

[J. J.]

The conclusion remains that the heifer was not exonerated.

But there was not even enough evidence to charge. 

Ah, the good old JJ, trying to convince us that the sun rises from the west.

Try reading this:

It'll just be more of what we got this morning.

We'll get a reiteration of all the GOP talking points: allegations of a shadowy conspiracy, accusations of bias on the part of Mueller and his team, etc. (If anything, Mueller was trying too hard to be non-partisan.) There will also be vague ranting, and implications that any attempt to challenge Mangolini's godhood is treason.  Mr. Trump doesn't normally venture into the "can't indict the President so he can't have done anything wrong" circular logic, so I doubt we'll see it.

Key takeaway from the first hearing: if Donald Trump was not occupying the office of President of the United States, Mueller would have charged him with obstruction of justice.

And... Mueller walked that back during the second hearing, without clearing Trump, of course.

[ProudModerate2]

I so wish that a Dem is elected in 2020, and the new Justice Dept moves forward with indicting donald trump. Actually, an easy decision should be one against Don Jr.

[President Johnson]

I so wish that a Dem is elected in 2020, and the new Justice Dept moves forward with indicting donald trump. Actually, an easy decision should be one against Don Jr.

Me too. How long is the statue of limitations? I've read multiple times that Trump can't be indicted any longer because of this if he gets and serves out a second term. Five years?

By the way, it would be funny if he needs to ask the new president to grant a pardon to avoid going into prison.

[Donald Trump’s Toupée]

Another embarrassment for the Democrats. The left just got smacked up.

It is also absolutely disgusting to see CNN so desperate in wishing, wanting, begging, for trump to be impeached. Trying to twist and wring any fraction of a fraction of evidence to possibly maybe support impeachment. This is journalism? It’s disgusting.

[GeorgiaModerate]

I so wish that a Dem is elected in 2020, and the new Justice Dept moves forward with indicting donald trump. Actually, an easy decision should be one against Don Jr.

Me too. How long is the statue of limitations? I've read multiple times that Trump can't be indicted any longer because of this if he gets and serves out a second term. Five years?

By the way, it would be funny if he needs to ask the new president to grant a pardon to avoid going into prison.

Here's a fun scenario to think about: Trump loses the 2020 election handily and resigns on Jan. 19, 2021, so Pence becomes President for one day and can pardon him.  Hilarity ensues (whether Pence follows through and pardons him, or he doesn't.)

[J. J.]

I so wish that a Dem is elected in 2020, and the new Justice Dept moves forward with indicting donald trump. Actually, an easy decision should be one against Don Jr.

Me too. How long is the statue of limitations? I've read multiple times that Trump can't be indicted any longer because of this if he gets and serves out a second term. Five years?

By the way, it would be funny if he needs to ask the new president to grant a pardon to avoid going into prison.

There is the possibility that the statute would toll, i.e. not start with SoL until after a president leaves office.

The real trouble, however, is that a lame duck president can pardon himself, in the case of federal law. 

The IG investigation is now key to the rest of the story. 

[GeorgiaModerate]

I so wish that a Dem is elected in 2020, and the new Justice Dept moves forward with indicting donald trump. Actually, an easy decision should be one against Don Jr.

Me too. How long is the statue of limitations? I've read multiple times that Trump can't be indicted any longer because of this if he gets and serves out a second term. Five years?

By the way, it would be funny if he needs to ask the new president to grant a pardon to avoid going into prison.

There is the possibility that the statute would toll, i.e. not start with SoL until after a president leaves office.

The real trouble, however, is that a lame duck president can pardon himself, in the case of federal law. 

The IG investigation is now key to the rest of the story. 

This is at best open to question and litigation.  There is an OLC opinion from the Nixon era that the President cannot pardon himself: https://www.justice.gov/file/20856/download.